6 in one hand, half dozen in the other????? - TTORA Forum
 
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Question 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other?????

We moved to a rental home that has the hot water heater turned up higher than we have had in the past, and it got me to thinking if it there is no differnce really if I turn it down or leave it high.
Turning it down would seem to then mean we would turn the faucet toward hot more and thus use more water thru the heater and cause it to have to heat more water up and for prolly longer cycles. Leaving it high would mean faucet is more toward the cold side, less water goes thru the heater, but it will need to cycle on for more frequent but shorter heat cycles to maintain the higher temp.
So what do you think, zero sum gain either way? or not. Please enlighten me if I am incorrect, since I never claim to know everything, I willingly seek to be edjumacated.

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:28 PM
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Unless you have a demand heater, it's the idle periods that you have to take into consideration. The time during which you are not using hot water, it's taking more energy to maintain water at a the higher temp setting. The heater also has less than 100% efficiency so much of the engergy used by the heater is lost as waste heat, up the flue for a gas heater.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Unless you have a demand heater, it's the idle periods that you have to take into consideration. The time during which you are not using hot water, it's taking more energy to maintain water at a the higher temp setting. The heater also has less than 100% efficiency so much of the engergy used by the heater is lost as waste heat, up the flue for a gas heater.
My next house I own I want to put in one of those electric demand heaters, those are cool.
Thanks for the info, heading out to the garage to turn it down now.

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:45 PM
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My next house I own I want to put in one of those electric demand heaters, those are cool.
Thanks for the info, heading out to the garage to turn it down now.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:58 PM
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I have one! Just make sure you get a big one. The one in my house is to small.
X2
I had a regular sized one in my last house. Impossible to have two hot water faucets on at once. The one farther away would loose its hot water. Bummer when taking a shower.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 06:06 PM
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There's more to it than just economy.

There's also safety to think about.

If there are kids around, keeping the thing set so it's not possible to scald skin is not a bad idea.

If there are no kids around, and your heater is a newer, more efficient type, then there's another thing to consider.

The hotter you set the water temp, the less of it you will use to get the water temp you want in your shower.

Or, if you prefer, the hotter the heater temp, the longer your shower time before it goes cold.

This might matter if there are several people using the hot water.

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 01:12 AM
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just move back to AZ where the water comes out hot no matter what.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 07:14 AM
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There's more to it than just economy.

There's also safety to think about.

If there are kids around, keeping the thing set so it's not possible to scald skin is not a bad idea.

If there are no kids around, and your heater is a newer, more efficient type, then there's another thing to consider.

The hotter you set the water temp, the less of it you will use to get the water temp you want in your shower.

Or, if you prefer, the hotter the heater temp, the longer your shower time before it goes cold.

This might matter if there are several people using the hot water.

...effectively making it a 'bigger' hot water heater....

But with kids around... keep it safe!

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 08:24 AM
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Unless you have a demand heater......
Those are actually less efficient for 90+% of normal houses. Unless you only use a little bit of hot water here and there, your better to go with a normal water heater.

The on-demand units use quite a bit more gas as they have to get the water hot really fast. Because they use so much, for most homes it cancels out the benefit that would be gained by saving gas during the idle periods.

They did a big study on them. With the added cost and the fact that they only really save gas for a small percentage of homes, they said it was not worth it fo 90+% of homes.

If you were to only use hot water a few times a week, then it may be worth it. Say if you travel and are gone a lot. My mother who is in her 70's may benefit for example. Like most old people, she showers like 2 times a week, washes her dishes in cold water, and only does laundry once every other week. The saving for all the idle time may make it worth it. I say may, as you have to factor in the added cost of the on demand unit against the cost savings in gas.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
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I didn't recommend them, I was just laying the ground rules for a tank heater discussion.
Actually, I suspect a viable alternative may be a combination of storage and on demand as nieither would work as hard while one helps make up for the short comings of the other, but I haven't done a study of it.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:21 AM
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I know you didnt, but you brought it up!

I also thing you may be right, some sort of on demand unit crossed with a normal hot water heater may be the best. I see more and more water heating systems on the roofs of homes around here also. Preheat the water on the roof before it gets to the water heater so it doesnt have to work as hard to bring it up to temp.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:24 AM
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Fyi

I'm in the construction industry in Fresno, CA and this is what we put in all of our houses as standard. These units are on demand water, they require a 1-1/2" gas line but it is well worth the money.

http://www.foreverhotwater.com/

They cost around $1,000 from our distributor don't know how much they cost retail. You will never run out of hot water no matter how many showers, washing machine, dishwasher you have running at once.

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:29 AM
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I'm in the construction industry in Fresno, CA and this is what we put in all of our houses as standard. These units are on demand water, they require a 1-1/2" gas line but it is well worth the money.

http://www.foreverhotwater.com/

They cost around $1,000 from our distributor don't know how much they cost retail. You will never run out of hot water no matter how many showers, washing machine, dishwasher you have running at once.
Yes, if you want unlimited hot water then they are great. Keep in mind that you are going to pay for it, both in initial cost and on your gas bill.

We have a 40 gallon hot water heater. We have never had a problem running out of hot water unless you take a long hot shower and try!

Guess if you use a little common sense it is not a problem, of course, common sense isnt that common any more.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:36 AM
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Yes, if you want unlimited hot water then they are great. Keep in mind that you are going to pay for it, both in initial cost and on your gas bill.

We have a 40 gallon hot water heater. We have never had a problem running out of hot water unless you take a long hot shower and try!

Guess if you use a little common sense it is not a problem, of course, common sense isnt that common any more.
I'm not trying to sell anyone one these, just stating what we have been using, I didn't know this but I guess over in Europe they have been using these for the past 15 or so years. What is nice about the units are that you can set the temperature that you want the water to come out of the unit (yes, just like a normal HWH) thus you can set it for the right temperature that you want to be comfortable, thus only having to turn on the hot water in a shower or what not. (but for those of us who are married, the difference between what is comfortable for me and what is comfortable for my wife is an opposite spectrum).

Growing up whenever we would have family or friends staying with us we would just turn up the temp on the HWH to compensate for more showers and such.

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 10:52 AM
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but for those of us who are married, the difference between what is comfortable for me and what is comfortable for my wife is an opposite spectrum
Why does that sound familiar?

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 11:29 AM
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TRD4ME is your avatar for real, I saw that a while back and wondered if it was chopped or not. I bet your leathery cheerio was tighter than a snare drum driving out on that!

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 12:35 PM
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...
Ok, this will probably open a can of worms. The temp you set the heater to has little to no bearing of cost EXCEPT upon the initial length of time it takes to heat the water. Once the water is heated, regardless of the temp it is set at, it takes the same amount of cost to maintain the temp. Next you need to consider some factors. Just because the water may be hotter and thus you as a person would use less heated water due to that, the same doesn't apply to say a dish washer or washing machine that goes by volume and not temp. So those will still use the same amount and thus the water taking longer to heat to a higher temp and adding that additional cost. You'll need to decide what temp works best for your lifestyle which will ultimately determine cost.

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 12:43 PM
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TRD4ME is your avatar for real, I saw that a while back and wondered if it was chopped or not. I bet your leathery cheerio was tighter than a snare drum driving out on that!
Yes, it is real. My friend was next in his Jeep, but part of the small piece the front tire was on fell off when he drove onto it!

That was from the Moab 2004 trip:
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Or more specifically:
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 09:52 AM
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Bullshit!!

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 09:59 AM
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Bullshit!!
Dammit Dick... Bullshit to what?

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:05 AM
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Well BULLSHIT for you not being able to figure out thread display for one. Want some more?

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:15 AM
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Well BULLSHIT for you not being able to figure out thread display for one. Want some more?
Some of us don't like thread display. Use the quote button dammit!

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:17 AM
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Some of us don't like thread display. Use the quote button dammit!
What he said!

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:19 AM
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what he said ...

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:33 AM
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I think you already know where you can put yer damn quote button.

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 10:57 AM
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I think you already know where you can put yer damn quote button.
?

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 12:41 PM
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Ok, this will probably open a can of worms. The temp you set the heater to has little to no bearing of cost EXCEPT upon the initial length of time it takes to heat the water. Once the water is heated, regardless of the temp it is set at, it takes the same amount of cost to maintain the temp. Next you need to consider some factors. Just because the water may be hotter and thus you as a person would use less heated water due to that, the same doesn't apply to say a dish washer or washing machine that goes by volume and not temp. So those will still use the same amount and thus the water taking longer to heat to a higher temp and adding that additional cost. You'll need to decide what temp works best for your lifestyle which will ultimately determine cost.

Hey Mike, I'll bite and argue with you.

The rate of heat loss increases as the temperature difference between the water and surroundings increases, making you lose more energy from the water at higher temperatures. The burners are also not able to transfer energy to the water as efficiently as the water temperature increases so you're losing that way too. Because the water cools quicker from a higher temperature and the burner heats slower at higher temperatures, it's more efficient to keep the water temperature lower in your tank.

Your other argument for appliances is only semi-correct. Most washing machines still rely on volume but a dishwasher, in most cycles, will pre-heat the water with the element if the incoming water is too cold. That may not occur as much in AZ as it does here, but the dishwasher does use a thermistor to sense water temperature and will raise it if needed for the selected cycle. ....Steve


On a side note, the tankless or on-demand heaters are practically useless up here because our incoming water temperature is too cold to be heated in a short time, to a usable temperature. Most people with families that have had them installed usually end up putting another in series with the first to make it work, eliminating the cost and space savings they were trying to accomplish.

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 02:34 PM
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On a side note, the tankless or on-demand heaters are practically useless up here because our incoming water temperature is too cold to be heated in a short time, to a usable temperature. Most people with families that have had them installed usually end up putting another in series with the first to make it work, eliminating the cost and space savings they were trying to accomplish.
You are right on that account, you can get a rinnai system that can raise the temperature up to 75* from ambient water temperature, but up there where it gets -20*. If you want better than that, like you said you have to put in two.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 02:38 PM
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You are right on that account, you can get a rinnai system that can raise the temperature up to 75* from ambient water temperature, but up there where it gets -20*. If you want better than that, like you said you have to put in two.
We've also found the Rinnai works a lot better than the Bosch since the exchangers are coated in tin and don't scale as much. We've got cold, hard water here in Calgary that doesn't suit the tankless heaters well.

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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 05:30 PM
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my water heater has a "most economic" setting, so i set it to that...
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