Project 20RE: Junkyard fuel injection with TBI

[YotaJosh]

I've been thinking of ways to fuel inject my 20R, without having to deal with mismatching parts from a 22RE, etc. Land Cruiser guys have been doing the GM TBI swap for years, and it works well (because TBI works well). The computer is pretty easy to reprogram (so I think), and all the parts are easily found in a junkyard or at any common parts store.

The LC crowd used TBI from 4.3 V6 S-10's and Astros. The 4.3 throttle body works well because a 2F is 4.2L, so it's a good match. To match my 2.2L 20R, I need to find a 2.8 V6 throttle body from an S-10 (the puny V6). I've read that you want to keep the TBI system within 30% of the original engine size.

I have everything worked out in my head, but I still have some hangups:
1. I want to use the stock sensors from the 2.8 donor. I'll need to find adapters, and/or drill and tap new holes in my manifolds, etc.

2. No one seems to make a TBI to Toyota adapter. I don't really *like* the 2 piece Weber adapter, but using the bottom plate of that, and make my own top plate is probably the route I'm going. The plate on the left in the pic below is the one I'll use, and make the top plate bolt to it.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/dotnofoolin/SHfVfqkjx6I/AAAAAAAAAr4/AwI4_Bci9P0/s400/weber_to_toyota_adapter.jpg

Anyone good at milling/fabbing aluminum plate? :)

3. I'd like to *not* buy an expensive Painless harness for the TBI, so getting intimate with a GM FSM is probably in my future.

4. Adapting the current throttle setup to the TBI. Probably get a longer cable, and fab some brackets.

My ultimate goal is for it to be as "bolt-on" as possible, with minimal custom parts, and also easily reversible. This is mostly an experiment, and I don't want my truck down forever if it doesn't work out.

Some good reading:
http://www.goingfaster.com/spo/tbi.html
http://www.tomquinn.com/lc/2f_fi/index.html
http://www.olympiafj60.net/2f-tbi-carb-replacemnet.html

Other links I've found:
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47254
http://www.iei.net/~msmythe/TBI/tbi_info.htm
http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/4PlusTBIComponents.htm
http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/258285-my-tbi-adventure-so-far.html
http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?cPath=73_64&products_id=54
http://www.thirdgen.org/promintro
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227747/
http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=10
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/general-discussion/performance/tbi-tuning-87-95-obd-i-ecm-pcm/276965-tbi-tuning-guide.html
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/tpi_pigtails.aspx

Quick and dirty parts list:
Bosch 13077 3 wire heated O2 Sensor
Master E2182 fuel pump (or a E8094 [use this!])/Fram G-3 filter
Motormite non-fouler 42009
Dorman 800-153 (fuel line kit/fittings for TB)

Wish me luck. :D

[79coyotefrg]

didnt they have tbi on the chevy 2.5 liter 4 bangers??

[domino]

I think I'd just go to propane. Seems a lot easier to me. But then again, this would be a pretty cool swap if you can figure it out.

[YotaJosh]

didnt they have tbi on the chevy 2.5 liter 4 bangers??

Yep, but I think they are single injector, 1 barrel units. The 2.8 is a dual injector, 2 barrel. More powah! (maybe :rolleyes: )

I think I'd just go to propane. Seems a lot easier to me. But then again, this would be a pretty cool swap if you can figure it out.

Thought about it, and priced it. For the price of it, I could get a 22RE from someone, and rebuild it. I'm thinking this little project will come in under $300, until I start buying chip programmers and code scanners. Plus, propane isn't that easy to get around here, and I'm not sure how legal it is for the street.

[YotaJosh]

One other thing to add to the list.

5. Ignition integration. The cruiser guys had it easy since they could upgrade to a fancy GM style HEI distributor that worked with the ECM. Not sure what I'll do yet.

[Arky Tacoma]

that easy to get around here, and I'm not sure how legal it is for the street.


I don't think legality would be a problem. A lot of the Entergy pickups run on propane.

[79coyotefrg]

back in the 80's it was very common to see trucks with HUGE propane tanks in the back, i think a couble 20 gallon/pound whatever tanks would get you alot of miles :dunno:

i just acquired a 83 model truck with a 21R-U :eek:

[colsoncj]

3. I'd like to *not* buy an expensive Painless harness for the TBI, so getting intimate with a GM FSM is probably in my future.


I might be able to help you with that.... :) you've got a pm.

[gittinit]

There have been some writeups on addinf VW/AUDI mechanical fuel injection to carbed toyota 4cyl motors, but I havent really searched for them as finding the parts in my neck of the woods would be virtually impossable. I'd imagine these parts would be easier to find in your area.

From what I have been told you need the airbox, intake tube, throttle body, and associated wires, injectors, ect. You have to build your own adapter and the throttlebody mounts horizontally, instead of vertically like the gm tbi setups, which makes this part even easier. The best part about it is......



NO COMPUTER!

I have to find a thread/writeup now! Let me look around.

[gittinit]

This is basicly what youd be looking for but they want to much for the little stuff that you can make yourself. http://www.zuksoffroad.net/samurai_engine.htm
http://www.zuksoffroad.net/toyota_engine.htm
I know there is a writeup around here somewere. URGH! Back to searching!

[YotaJosh]

I've looked at the ZOR setup before, but never really could find alot of info about it. I don't seem to run across many VW/AUDI parts around here either, though I've never really looked.

It looks like a neat system, but I'm not crazy about all the proprietary parts, intake tubes, and the intake to head adapter/spacer. Or the cost. Or the fact that I have to buy the kit just to get the parts list for the AUDI parts. :(

[79coyotefrg]

i think your original TBI thought was the best

[YotaJosh]

Well, I haven't done much. I went to the junkyard, and found that there's plenty of parts. I need to go when the heat index isn't 100+, and the sun isn't high in the sky.

I did remember that once upon a time, Offenhauser made a 4 barrel intake for Toyota 20R's. Googled around a bit, and found one. It's expensive though. :( $337.84 expensive.

http://http://www.offyparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_25/products_id/918
http://www.offyparts.com/images/offy_6259-dp.jpg

This would solve the adapter problem, as TBI to 4 bbl adapters are available all day long.

If you stumble across a used Offy intake manifold, let me know. :)

[79coyotefrg]

Well, I haven't done much. I went to the junkyard, and found that there's plenty of parts. I need to go when the heat index isn't 100+, and the sun isn't high in the sky.

I did remember that once upon a time, Offenhauser made a 4 barrel intake for Toyota 20R's. Googled around a bit, and found one. It's expensive though. :( $337.84 expensive.

http://http://www.offyparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_25/products_id/918
http://www.offyparts.com/images/offy_6259-dp.jpg

This would solve the adapter problem, as TBI to 4 bbl adapters are available all day long.

If you stumble across a used Offy intake manifold, let me know. :)
you do realize the intake pictured is for a 22R

20R intake has round ports :thumbs: thats a great idea though

[YotaJosh]

Haven't done any work yet. I'm still in the research stage. :o

I did find a goldmine of info though:
http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47254

I wish the heat index wasn't 100+ so pillaging the junkyards wouldn't be so bad. :xcrybaby:

[79coyotefrg]

yea its 102* here

[YotaJosh]

This project lives again!

I was at the junkyard the other day, and I couldn't pass up a perfect harness/sensor/ECM combo that was easy to get. Now the fun begins.

Anyone good at milling aluminum plate? :D

[gittinit]

This project lives again!

I was at the junkyard the other day, and I couldn't pass up a perfect harness/sensor/ECM combo that was easy to get. Now the fun begins.

Anyone good at milling aluminum plate? :D


What are you needing to mill? Are you looking to mill the head, or the intake?

[YotaJosh]

What are you needing to mill? Are you looking to mill the head, or the intake?

Neither. I need to make an adapter plate that bolts the throttle body to the 20R/22R intake.

Like this:

http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/parts_pictures/tbimanadaptrW.jpg

[YotaJosh]

I've been pretty busy with this conversion over the past 2 months.

So far I've...

Trimmed down the wiring harness to just the required circuits
Tested the harness out of the truck with all the sensors plugged in
Modified the ECM to accept newer EEPROMS and the Emulator
Sourced more parts from the junkyard - mostly connectors and air cleaner parts
Fabbed an aluminum adapter plate to bolt the TBI to the 20R intake
Plugged off all unnecessary ports in the intake
Welded up the O2 bung on the header, and bought a new heated O2 sensor
Sourced a 22RE distributor, installed it, and got the base timing set
Fabbed up and found locations for all the sensors, modules, coil, etc.
Removed old crap - like vacuum hoses, charcoal canisters, etc.
Connected everything to the engine and wiring harness - so far no Check Engine Light.
Plus a dozen other things I'm probably forgetting.


... and to top it all of, I started it. IT RUNS!! :headbang::woot::xrocker:

At first it ran like poop and wouldn't idle for crap, dumping too much gas and backfiring through the throttle body, but I realized that I might have reversed the white/red wire from the dist where it hooks to the ignition module. Once I switched that, and capped a vacuum port I missed, it started and ran like it was fresh off the factory assembly line. :D

I'm now playing with tuning the ECM. There's enough stuff in the programming to boggle the mind, but luckily there's plenty of info on what to change and what it does on the 'net.

I still have a laundry list of things to do...


Figure out how to connect the gas pedal to the throttle body. I had to hack off a large chunk of the bracketery to make it fit on the engine.
Finish the harness - still need to merge in the starter signal wire, the extra O2 sensor wires, check engine light, and tape it all up nice and pretty.
Mount the harness with some clips and sheet metal screws
Weld up the leaks around the O2 sensor where I missed a spot.
Carve out a hole in the firewall to route the ECM connections into the cab where I'm going to mount the computer.
Drive it around (alot) and put some miles on it and tweak the code to get it running good.


I'll have it all done and running by the Jambo, and might need to tune some while I'm there. Looks like I'll tote the laptop and inverter everywhere the truck goes for a while. My main goal it to get it running good enough to wheel for now. I can perfect the code later.

I'll get pictures and more details later on some of the trickery I had to accomplish. (like cost, and how much I could do it again for)

:D

[01yota]

Sweet, glad it's working out for you.

[79coyotefrg]

:kewl:

[Jordan7118]

Josh, your electronics know-how is amazing. Congrats!

:cool:

[wanabecruisen]

Impressed!

[YotaJosh]

Thanks!

All in all, the hardest part of this swap has been getting the throttle body on the intake. 22R adapters are available from Affordable Fuel Injection for $115, but none for the 20R. I thought about buying one, and using the LCE 22R/20R carb adapter I already had, but the chunk of aluminum was only $24 from an internet metal supplier, and that was enough to make 2 adapters (the first one I screwed up, and the second one that was right.)

[gittinit]

Nice! I would have gotten lost in the details, I'm impressed with your will to keep going with this mod.

[slacker24/7]

Wow !! :clap: also VERY impressed... I would have been lost on the first day.... congrats !!!

[Arky Tacoma]

You guys should have seen the massive amount of wires :eek: I almost shit myself when I saw it. Josh has the patience of a thousand men.

[gittinit]

Hurry up and figure out how much its gonna cost me to have a harness put together for my 20r extra cab.

Seriously though if the price is right and its a simple enough setup this may be my mod of choice for the extra cab, vs. the dual fuel propane setup I have been contemplating.

[wanabecruisen]

Hurry up and figure out how much its gonna cost me to have a harness put together for my 20r extra cab.

Seriously though if the price is right and its a simple enough setup this may be my mod of choice for the extra cab, vs. the dual fuel propane setup I have been contemplating.

I'd go injection over duel fuel any day. Remember, when you set up a duel fuel system the motor has to be tuned to run on the lower octane fuel (gas) and you will not get all the power out of the propane. This is why propane systems got a bad rap back in the day and were said to have no power....
Gas octane = 87ish, propane octane = 110ish...

[YotaJosh]

Well, I got all the todo list items done.

Started playing with the tuning. Started with the stock chip that came with this computer (5.7L, Manual Tranny), and detuned it to try and get it running better.

It idled like a champ, but as soon as I hit the road, it was a fight to get it back in the garage. It backfired through the intake many times. :eek: There was one moment when it pulled hard in 2nd gear, but that was short lived.

So, today at work I had the bright idea to start with a 4.3 Manual Tranny chip, and detune that. I made my tweaks, thought about it all day, and got home and tried it out.

O. M. G. It idles even better now, and the throttle response seems tons better sitting still. I backed up into the street, and took off. I knew immediately that this was a better starting point to tune with.

I put about 15 miles on it, and it ran as good and maybe a touch better than both carbs I ever had on this motor. And I've still got some fine tuning to do. :D

Those that are coming to the Jambo can check it out in person.

[Jordan7118]

Those that are coming to the Jambo can check it out in person.

I will! Maybe a ride? That'd be pretty sweet :cool:

[YotaJosh]

Update!

I tried to do more tuning, but was getting frustrated. What the truck was doing was randomly dying when idling, and hard starting. Nothing changed from Gilmer till now.

I played with the code a bit, and tried testing all my sensors. I even asked around on a another forum and was asked about my fuel pump. I realized that mine was probably not putting out enough PSI or GPH since it was working with a carb at one point. :o

So, I searched around for the best pump, found it, put it on, and had to retune from scratch because the new pump threw everything out of wack. Fuel pressure is very important in a TBI setup, and apparently I was trying to tune around my problems.

Now with that out of the way, I couldn't get the 4.3 code to run right, so I started over with the 5.7 code, and detuned that. Things are much better now! It idle perfect again (no dying) and actually crawls good whereas in Gilmer it would stall.

I've got more tuning to do to get it perfect. All in due time. :) Full writeup coming soon- including prices and pictures. You won't be disappointed.

[YotaJosh]

Project 20RE - Junkyard injection with TBI

What: inject a Toyota 20R 4 cylinder motor with GM Throttle Body Injection (TBI) as cheaply as possible
Why: 22RE's don't grow on trees around here, and usually need a rebuild before dropping in the engine bay. Plus I like to try new things, and I have a good running motor that I don't want to throw away.

Ever since I started wheeling my Toyota, I've realized that carbs suck off road. Granted, the factory Aisin carbs are better than most, I still had issues. The Land Cruiser crowd has been adapting the GM TBI system to the F and 2F motors for years, so I knew it was possible to convert this system to run just about anything.

To begin this project, I started searching around for companies that sold kits or parts, and found a few, but the prices were out of my budget ($1000 or more sometimes). I figured I could do better. I then started researching the TBI system in general, and found that it has a strong following in many denominations of the automobile world. One such group is the IH crowd, or "binders" as they refer to themselves as. This lead me to Binder Planet, and all the wonderful tech that is contained in the "Injection Tech" section of their forum. A man by the name of Bill Hamilton has his act together! By soaking up all the info there, I was prepared to begin collecting parts for my project.

So, here's the breakdown of my system, and the source/price of each component (* items came from junkyard):

TBI unit from a 4.3l Chevy V6* - $25
7747 ECM (computer) from a 5.7l Chevy C1500* - $25
Wiring harness from a 5.7l Chevy C1500* - $25
Ignition coil from 5.7l Chevy C1500* - $8.99
22RE Distributor* - $20
Dodge Durango air cleaner housing and duct* - $10.99
FJ80 throttle cable* - $10.99
MAP,ESC,Ignition Module* - Free thanks to cargo pants. :D
3/4" x 6" x 12" aluminum plate (for adapter) - $17
O2 Sensor - Bosch 13077 - $44.99
Non-fouler 42002 - to make O2 bung with - $4.29
Spectre 3" cone air filter - $20
3" exhaust pipe coupler - to attach air filter to duct - $2.99
Fuel pump - Airtex E8094 - $112.99
Moates AutoProm APU1 burner/emulator/ALDL logger - $330
Moates G2 memory adapter - $30
Moates S2 28-pin ZIF socket - $10
Various nuts/bolts/connectors/etc - $20


So far my total is $718.23. So far I'm less than a standard propane conversion, and less than a 22RE core and rebuild. :D

The big hit in the project was the AutoProm programmer at $330. Take that out of my costs (plus the ZIF socket), and it's only $378.23. :eek: I feel that since nobody had a BIN file for my ECM to run a 20R, the programmer was a good investment.

I'm still tuning the system, but so far, I feel it was money well spent. Off road performance is awesome, and the engine really like the TBI.

[YotaJosh]

Here's the overall shot of the system. You can see the "Cold Air Intake" system I came up with. A regular round 14" aircleaner would have worked too, but I was afraid of hood clearance issues.
The parts came from a Dodge Durango. I had to dremel out some of the internal parts to get it to clear the injectors.http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqhLdqLzI/AAAAAAAADUo/02RDlWAjqRw/s800/IMG_5966.JPG

Wiring harness. Yes, I used black tape to wrap it, and I wish I hadn't. I didn't cut or splice any of the factory GM harness. That's why it seems long in places, and doubled over.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqGfRxelI/AAAAAAAADUQ/o01_Xi6Q-sU/s800/IMG_5961.JPG

Where harness goes through firewall to ECM. 2" hole saw works nicely. Grommet is a Toyota firewall grommet from the junkyard.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqGFcXrDI/AAAAAAAADUM/q36EpEgMi_Q/s800/IMG_5960.JPG

Fuel pump relay and main system relay. I reused the FP relay that came with the harness, and found a off road light relay for the system relay. The red wire with the spade connectors leads back to the fuse box and ties into the ENGINE fuse.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqgbMBiII/AAAAAAAADUc/w1bLl4XFUWM/s800/IMG_5962.JPG

4.3l Throttle body, Coolant temp sensor, and homemade adapter plate. I need to clean the TB a bit, but internally it's clean, so I didn't worry about it. The CTS screwed right into the Toyota intake. The adapter plate is made from 3/4" thick aluminum. I matched up the gaskets for both the 20R carb and the TBI unit and traced out the holes. Then I used a 1 3/4 hole saw to make the center bores, a wood blade on a sawzall to rough out the inner taper (since the TBI bores are bigger than the intake bores) and smoothed it all out with a die grinder.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqglDPkYI/AAAAAAAADUg/XRoe2dlqMv0/s800/IMG_5963.JPG

ESC, Ignition Module. I decided to keep the knock sensor (mounted on the block in the water drain under the header), so I needed the ESC module. Also, the GM ignition module needed a heat sink, hence the small aluminum plate behind it. The 22RE distributor connects to the ignition module in a specfic way: distributor red wire -> P terminal on module. distributor white wire -> N terminal on module. If you get them backwards, you won't get a proper signal to the ECM and it will run like poop.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqhdxNWQI/AAAAAAAADUs/wEdqW5mRm4c/s800/IMG_5967.JPG

GM coil, in stock mounting holes. Stock bracket lined up with the existing holes in the fender.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NrGQ_B0YI/AAAAAAAADU4/hDUJB3kSy0w/s800/IMG_5968.JPG

22RE distributor, no vacuum advance. You could modify a 20R or 22R distributor to remove the vacuum advance parts, but I figured this was easier.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NrGmO51vI/AAAAAAAADU8/-oHWXH35DCQ/s800/IMG_5969.JPG

Throttle cable connection. I found a very long FJ80 throttle cable in the junk yard that allowed me to put the mounting anywhere I wanted. I ended up having to cut a large part of the TBI linkage off to fit the intake near the Toyota EGR port. I rewelded some of the cut parts back to the top of the linkage so the cable could be used in a stock fashion.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NrGgaKLNI/AAAAAAAADVA/yZKUlMRe_RI/s800/IMG_5970.JPG

O2 sensor. I'm using a 3 wire heated Bosch 13077 sensor. The bung is a 18mm spark plug non-fouler cut in half and welded in place.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NrGwuQiXI/AAAAAAAADVE/jKDMCBu95fQ/s800/IMG_5971.JPG

Fuel pump. Airtex E8094. Puts out 17-20 PSI and 50 GPH. Perfect for TBI setups. It's a pricey one though.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NrHL4gMxI/AAAAAAAADVI/Ae8fhxMVTkg/s800/IMG_5973.JPG

ECM, ALDL, check engine light. THere isn't any space under the dash of the first gen trucks, and I wasn't going to gut anything to make space, so I mounted the computer on the kick panel. You can see the chip and ZIF socket sticking out there. I plan on removing the ZIF and the cover will fit again. Also, I mounted my ALDL connector close to the ECM, and the check engine light is a Radio Shack LED mounted on the ALDL connector. By doing this I kept all the wiring in one area.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqFiSZOLI/AAAAAAAADUE/DqeDBmbuO5Q/s800/IMG_5958.JPG

AutoProm from Moates.net. This lets me burn chips, log data from the ALDL connector, and also it can emulate chips on the fly from the laptop, so I don't have to "burn chips, reset ecm, test drive, repeat". Just make the changes and start the motor.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1MscFR5l4ik/S3NqFeOZnpI/AAAAAAAADUA/zocOxi88-8M/s800/IMG_5957.JPG

There isn't an off the shelf ECM that will run the 20R good, so I started with a 7747 ARHT bin, and changed the # of cylinders to 4 and the BPW to 138. This got it in the ballpark, but it's still running a tad rich. Using programs like WinALDL and TunerPro, I can log data and change the code to dial it in.

And finally, here's some links I found useful during my conversion...
2F TBI Conversion (http://www.tomquinn.com/lc/2f_fi/index.html)
Another 2F TBI Conversion (http://www.olympiafj60.net/2f-tbi-carb-replacemnet.html)
TBI FAQ on Binder Planet (http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47254)
IH8Mud user adding TBI to a carbed 350 (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/258285-my-tbi-adventure-so-far.html)
Moates AutoProm (http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?cPath=73_64&products_id=54)
Great PROM/BIN programming info at ThirdGen.org (http://www.thirdgen.org/promintro)
Lots of great tech on the 1227747 ECM (http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227747/)
How to install the 24-pin to 28-pin adapter in the ECM (http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=10)
Great info on tuning the ECM at FullSizeChevy.com (http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/general-discussion/performance/tbi-tuning-87-95-obd-i-ecm-pcm/276965-tbi-tuning-guide.html)

[79coyotefrg]

:xpopcorn2

[Jordan7118]

MAP,ESC,Ignition Module* - Free thanks to cargo pants. :D


Dear Pick-N-Pull,

I understand now why I am charged a dollar to walk your yard....


:p

[YotaJosh]

Dear Pick-N-Pull,

I understand now why I am charged a dollar to walk your yard....


:p

Actually, it's the other way around. If I have to pay a dollar, I'm leaving with something!