PowerTank / Co2 Question

[SAR_Squid79]

I'm still in Afghanistan, but as we get closer to going home, I'm trying to plan out, in my head, all the things I want to do to my truck / trailer when I get home.


http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/images/blog/PT15.jpg


20 lb Tank
SuperFlow HPx Regulator
TIG-8200 Tire Inflator
Tomco Super Coupler
TPG-8060 Pressure gauge
25' SuperFlex Braided High Pressure Coiled Hose
Tank Boot
Regulator Dust Cover
Mounting Bracket


I just bought a 20lb PowerTank (COMP Series 20# Package B System (http://www.powertank.com/products/sfID1/13/listPage/1/productID/139)), and I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to mount it.

My first thought was that I would mount if vertically on my trailer. But I'd rather mount it on my Tacoma because I won't ALWAYS have the trailer out with me.

My second thought was to mount it horizontally on top of the wheel well "hump" in my bed. But I know you can't use it with it laying horizontally, and I don't want to have to unlatch it every time I want to use it...

I looked at all the available mounts on PowerTank's website, and most of the pictures of mounted tanks show them mounted at like 45* angles. So now I'm thinking that I may mount it on the under-side of my spare tire carrier. If I am able to mount it there, will I be able to use it safely? My spare tire carrier sits at about 50* or so...

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3976/rearbumper1eh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/5319/rearbumper4ek6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[cvlighthouse]

You could mount it sideways inside your tool box (so it could be locked) and go from a short hose extention to a coupler somewhere on the outside of your box. Keep the air turned on and plug in a hose anytime!

[trump]

Run my locker (and after I install it, a second) with mine as you see it mounted here. The coil hose and tire inflator have no problems reaching all the tires with it locked in its mount.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/CIMG0777.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/CIMG0758.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/CIMG0757.jpg

Took about 10 mins to install. BTW this is a mix of Powertank and The Source products:
-Source 20# mount
-Source Tank Boot
-Source Tank Net
-Powertank HPX Regulator Kit
-Powertank Tire Inflator
-Powertank ARB Manifold
-Lines are all Stainless Steel with Earls Fittings (hidden with plastic condom as shown, as not to raw dawg the cab and bed) :p

I struggled with how I was going to mount mine for a long time before finally saying "fuck it!" I was planning on originally adding a section of 1.75"/.120 tubing off the front of the tire carrier and bent it down toward the bed at a 45* angle. Next, butt weld a plate to the end and bolt it threw the bed. Then, I'd use Powertank's rollbar clamps to mount it to that. You might be able to use that concept with your bed bar. Hopefully this helps give you some ideas. I was lazy, got out the drill, and called it a day. :D

[marnes2986]

Im sorry a little offtopic: but when the tank is in the bed, how do you keep dumb hooligans from twisting the knob and letting out all the co2? and is there a way to securely lock the tank to the mount? or do you just take it out when daily driving LOL

[SAR_Squid79]

You could mount it sideways inside your tool box...
I'm assuming that by 'sideways' you mean laying on its side horizontally. You can not use a Co2 bottle that way. Co2 bottles have to be sitting somewhat upright.

Run my locker with mine as you see it mounted here.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/CIMG0777.jpg

I don't have any room in my bed to mount it like that.

As I said in my OP, I don't want to have to unlatch it every time I want to use it (although, I guess I will if I HAVE to).

I guess I should have made myself more clear. All I'm really asking is how much of an angle is okay for using the Co2 bottle with it still on the mount? I know it can't be laying on its side, but is 45* or more okay?

[trump]

when the tank is in the bed, how do you keep dumb hooligans from twisting the knob and letting out all the co2? and is there a way to securely lock the tank to the mount? or do you just take it out when daily driving LOL

With the regulator mounted they would need air tools or a fitting to let out the CO2. I have a lock that I put on the mounts strap. It only keeps the honest people honest anyway... If someone really wants to steal my shit, they will. I don't leave it in the hood like this.

I know it can't be laying on its side, but is 45* or more okay?

Yes, 30* or more and you're go to go.

[SAR_Squid79]

Yes, 30* or more and you're go to go.

Not to be a Negative Nelly / Doubting Doris - you sound pretty certain - but how did you come across that bit of info?

I was looking at this on the PT website:



http://powertankconstruction.com/images/floorbracket/floor-bracket-pkga.jpg

Description:
If you use your Power Tank on-the-go at the jobsite or at the track one of the biggest worries is knocking your tank over. If you use a Speed Bag you can buckle the top strap around a pole or stud but if you must move it from place to place often this can get old fast. There's an easy solution called the FLOOR Bracket. The FLOOR Bracket holds your Power Tank at just the right angle to allow vapor at the valve and yet holds the tank low enough that it will not tip over even if you pull on the hose. To move it, just pick it up and go. Set it down anywhere as it has four rubber feet to protect the floor. The FLOOR Bracket can even be used in combination with any of our Super or Power Brackets if a quick release feature is desired. All aluminum construction. (Note-The part number in the catalog on this item is incorrect.).

[cvlighthouse]

Not to be a Negative Nelly / Doubting Doris - you sound pretty certain - but how did you come across that bit of info?

I was looking at this on the PT website:

I found that info here: http://powertankconstruction.com/docs/Powertankreview.pdf

And I guess if you had a deep enough toolbox you might be able to mount it somewhere in there at that angle..

[trump]

Not to be a Negative Nelly / Doubting Doris - you sound pretty certain - but how did you come across that bit of info?

I was looking at this on the PT website:

Here you go:
http://www.powertank.com/faqs#question12


And I guess if you had a deep enough toolbox you might be able to mount it somewhere in there at that angle..

Unfortunately, not on our trucks... the bed isn't deep enough with a 20# tank to be mounted in a toolbox without having to stand it up to use it (even at 30*). That was my first plan.

[toymota]

In my pipe dreams of things I'd like to do to my truck, I thought about mounting one of those in the bed. The part worth mentioning is that I'd like to make a bed pocket so that it hangs between the frame and bed skin in the front corner. Access would be from inside the bed. It would probably have a cover and be plumbed into a hard line system.

Before I get accused of seeing this somewhere and copying the idea - I probably did. But I still think I'll do it.

[firebox40dash5]

Unfortunately, not on our trucks... the bed isn't deep enough with a 20# tank to be mounted in a toolbox without having to stand it up to use it (even at 30*). That was my first plan.

Just a thought, do they make a 'draw straw' type thing for the larger tanks? I know for small (20oz) CO2 tanks, you can put in a brass tube that has a curve at the end, which will keep you from drawing liquid CO2 as long as you have the tank positioned right. Obviously if you have the tank rotated 180* opposite, that would ensure you ONLY got liquid, which would be bad.

[01 Tundra]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v419/01tundra/back.jpg

[SAR_Squid79]

Showoff!

[01 Tundra]

Naw - showing off would be telling you about the quick coupler bulk head that's mounted next to the tank on the back wall, that routes through an in-line regulator and up to a distribution header under the hood with an isolation valve. So if I ever lose my ARB compressor, all I have to do is attached my air hose from the tank to the quick coupler next to it and open the valve under the hood and I have fully functioning lockers again :D!

[SAR_Squid79]

LOL - once I finally get an ARB up front, I'm not even going to mess with a compressor. I'm going to get the valve kit from PowerTank, and run the locker solely off of a Co2 tank. I read that with a Paintball sized tank, you can engage a locker like 550 times. I probably haven't activated my rear locker 550 times in the 7 years that I've had my Tacoma...

[drabnor]

whats up with the base of that hilift? ^

[SAR_Squid79]

I didn't even notice that . . . that's a great idea! That would have saved me from the big crease that I have in my driver's door.

...and if you were using it on pavement or whatever, you could just use the Hi-Lift base.

[Speedysg]

I've been successfully using my CO2 setup like this for 3 years.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/speedysg/100_2022.jpg

[marnes2986]

sorry offtopic once more........if i will just be using the powertank solely for tire fill ups....do i need a regulator? also i see 2 gauges on the regulator, one is how much pressure is coming out and is the other how much c02 is left? thanks

[toymota]

yes, one is for tank pressure, and the other is for regulated pressure.

Yes you need a regulator if you like your tires (or fingers for that matter).

You should really go to the powertank website and read all the FAQ section. Truly enlightening for someone new to the CO2 concept.

[snwbdr]

sorry offtopic once more........if i will just be using the powertank solely for tire fill ups....do i need a regulator? also i see 2 gauges on the regulator, one is how much pressure is coming out and is the other how much c02 is left? thanks

Mark, if all you want is filling up tires, you don't need an adjustable regulator....just the standard one.....but YES you do need a regulator....

[Scootn2nature]

Showoff!


yeah! x2

[gregers05]

ill try to take some pics of my set up. basically i have the tank mounted in the drivers side rear corner of the bed. when not in uses it lays horizontally. when i want to use it, i have it hinged so that it flips up and sits up straight. to keep it down i have 2 small ubolts on either side of the mount and a modified rachet strap to keep it from flipping up while wheeling. works great i wouldnt do it any other way if i had to do it again.

[gregers05]

how it sits without the tank when not wheeling
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/gregers05/random%20pic/P1010484.jpg

how it sits with the tank in there but not in use
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/gregers05/random%20pic/P1010487.jpg

when the tank is in use
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/gregers05/random%20pic/P1010485.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/gregers05/random%20pic/P1010486.jpg

[DocMcCoy]

I've been successfully using my CO2 setup like this for 3 years.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/speedysg/100_2022.jpg

Using your setup like this? How are you running it on its side?

[Speedysg]

I plug my coiled air line into the quick disconnect, turn the tank on, and off I go. It has a permanently regulated 150psi setup. It will freeze up occasionally I will admit, but during the summer it is a non-issue. I didn't want to set it up next to an outside rail because it WOULD get knocked off. When I need more CO2, I go to the local welding supply place and trade the tank in for a new one for about $17.

[gregers05]

I plug my coiled air line into the quick disconnect, turn the tank on, and off I go. It has a permanently regulated 150psi setup. It will freeze up occasionally I will admit, but during the summer it is a non-issue. I didn't want to set it up next to an outside rail because it WOULD get knocked off. When I need more CO2, I go to the local welding supply place and trade the tank in for a new one for about $17.

he asks because its supposed to be at a 30* angle or something like that in order for you to use it. that may explain the freezing issues your having

[Speedysg]

Ya I figured that's why he asked. In my experience I would say its a mis-conception that it wont work at all if it's layed down horizontally. Mine works fine the way it is setup. I admit that it would probably work better at an angle or vertical, but it rarely freezes fast enough to be any sort of issue. I use this setup every trip to air up my tires, and several of my buddies tires. You might have to wait a second every couple of tires so that it thaws out, but when it's 100+ degrees and the suns beating down on you, it doesn't take long. I have run air tools, reseated a tire, aired up mattresses, and more like this. Now if I had to deal with colder temperatures, I would change the way it's set up, or I would unbuckle the straps and go to town with it set straight up. When I cage the rear end and get rid of the flatbed, I will probably mount it to one of the upright or angled cage poles. As it sits now, it is far from any sort of possible damage due to hitting rocks or trees and doesn't get in the way when I need to get into the tool box or load the bed.

[DocMcCoy]

Might be more of an issue here in Canada. It very rarely gets to 100 here.

[trump]

Using a CO2 tank on its side is not good at all. Particularly bad for anyone with adjustable regulators, as liquid CO2 is horrible to gaskets and seals. This might not be an issue with a fixed reg, but it can destroy a adjustable regulator very quickly. Also, unlikely, but feeding CO2 in liquid form into a tire isn't completely safe. In my case, if I where to do that with my ARB... I could trash its seals and make a lot of unnecessary problems for myself.

Will it work on its side? yes. Should you do it? not if you can avoid it.

[ROCTAC]

You don't have to worry about liquid CO2 ever going into your tires or air lockers even if the tank was mounted upside down, simply because of CO2 vapourization properties. At 50 degrees farenheit bottle temp. liquid to gas vapourization occurs at around 43 bar or 623psi. The warmer the temp the higher this occurs, for example at 86 degrees farenheit it occurs at 1090 psi! So unless your regulator is set somwhere around these figures and you are airing tires up to over 1000psi the CO2 has already converted from its previous liquid form into gas. CO2 is corrosive or can be corrosive in its liquid form so I do understand the argument about it being bad for adjustable regulators seals. Bottom line is I have run plenty of tanks on their side as well for extended periods and it may not be as efficient as running them at a 45 or vertical but it does work. If you can run one vertical or at a 45 do it. The reason mine lays on its side is the same reason Speedysg mentioned above; It's out of the way incase of a roll over or flop. Sometimes I set it upright but most of the time I am lazy and just leave it on it's side.
Jason

[Wolf13]

to clear up a few things, its actually pretty easy to run a CO2 tank on its side, its been done in paintball for the past 20+ years, and yes, most paintball guns + liquid CO2= BAD, in some cases dangerously bad. But hey, if you can hand a CO2 powered gun to a bunch of dumb kids and still have it work all day, it can't be that hard, right?

Two ways to insure no liquid CO2. the first way is an antisiphon tube. principle behind this is that any CO2 tank will have a head of gas that you are pulling from, and denser liquid on the bottom. A standard tank will not have an antisiphon tube so has to be kept verticle enough to prevent liquid entering the valve. an antisiphon is simply a tube connecting to the valve bent to draw from the gas. Hardest part is of course rigging up an antisiphon tube,is if the valve isn't designed for one. If it is, just mark up as your orintation on tank and valve and install the tube so it wil be point up when the valve is put back on.

The other way is to give the CO2 a place to expand before it meets your regulator. In the old days in paintball we used to run expansion chambers and remotes. Expansion chambers were simply attachments that had a set of baffles that gave room for any liquid that made it into the line to expand before it reached the gun or reg. Remotes were simply an airline between the tank and the gun(reg) (the airlines talked about before), and it accomplished the same thing. In cold weather, more expansion room was sometimes needed so you saw some crazy setups back then. Now, you can flood out a remote or expansion chamber if you dump enough liquid into them, so an antisiphon with the expansion chamber mounted above the liquid CO2 or the remote above the CO2 is always going to help.

I am REALLY rusty on paintball CO2 tech these days, but when talking about CO2 tanks in paintball, you had sizes anywhere from 3.5 ounces up to people using bulk tanks. 7, 9, 16 and 20 oz bottles are the most common, but you can find some other ones out there even larger (an old teammate in the early 90's used a 2.5lb bulk tank strapped to his back). Nice thing about going with paintball stuff is theres a lot of old tech floating around pretty cheap with some pretty darn good regs designed to deal with CO2. if you want something a little more custom, there's some fiber wrapped tanks floating around you can put a paintball CO2 valve on that will get you even more volume. Any application you go with with CO2 though, just remember liquid sinks and needs a place to expand.

If you really want to go that route and get in depth, I suggest popping over to the tinker's guild, it used to be a webboard for the more eccentric and exotic paintball airsmiths, but its become a lot more generalized and this topic has come up before. Heck, CO2 tech in general. http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/ I know a few of the guys over there are way more current on whats on the market right now for this type of thing then I am. Paintball has moved away from CO2 now, even at many fields on rentals in favor of compressed air. Not sure how keen you guys would be about riding around with 4500 psi compressed airtanks though.

[trump]

Two ways to insure no liquid CO2. the first way is an antisiphon tube.

That was mentioned earlier in the thread. Problem being that most siphon tubes made for the size tanks we use (#'s not oz's) are for filling small paintball tanks. They're intended to siphon liquid not gas. Maybe you can bend them up to the side to get the gas. :dunno: The other question I would have is how the siphon tube will effect flow, as we are looking for as much flow as possible.

I am REALLY rusty on paintball CO2 tech these days, but when talking about CO2 tanks in paintball, you had sizes anywhere from 3.5 ounces up to people using bulk tanks. 7, 9, 16 and 20 oz bottles are the most common, but you can find some other ones out there even larger (an old teammate in the early 90's used a 2.5lb bulk tank strapped to his back).

A nice thought, but most of us use these to air up tires. Those tanks won't give us enough volume to be worthwhile. Most common size in the offroad community is 10#.

Nice thing about going with paintball stuff is theres a lot of old tech floating around pretty cheap with some pretty darn good regs designed to deal with CO2.

Fixed regulators designed for the kind of flow we need are available for cheap already. It's the adjustable regulators that are pricey.

Not sure how keen you guys would be about riding around with 4500 psi compressed airtanks though.

Volume would probably be the bigger drawback here, but yes, I'll pass on the 4500psi fiberglass/carbon fiber bomb.

[Wolf13]

That was mentioned earlier in the thread. Problem being that most siphon tubes made for the size tanks we use (#'s not oz's) are for filling small paintball tanks. They're intended to siphon liquid not gas. Maybe you can bend them up to the side to get the gas. :dunno: The other question I would have is how the siphon tube will effect flow, as we are looking for as much flow as possible.
all an antisiphon is is a bent tube. All a siphon is is a tube positioned to draw liquid, or a flexible weaighted tube. If you can use a siphon tube on your tank, you can use an antisiphon, you might just have to fab it though if you can't buy one with the right fitting size. And you can make one in any size, the only issue is mounting it to the valve, but with a properly sized antisiphon, your restriction is always going to be your valve. without removing the valve from the tank and looking at it, its hard to say, but I know a lot of the old bulk tanks we used were threaded for a siphon tube (which you wanted liquid for refilling smaller tanks).



A nice thought, but most of us use these to air up tires. Those tanks won't give us enough volume to be worthwhile. Most common size in the offroad community is 10#.
yeah, but SAR was also talking about using paintball tanks for his locker.



Fixed regulators designed for the kind of flow we need are available for cheap already. It's the adjustable regulators that are pricey.

Fixed is a very dirty word in paintball, its only the past few years that fixed output compressed air tanks have become the standard (4500psi tank, fixed out put at 300-400 for lp 800-850 for hp output). paintball air tech has always been about adjustability. looking into used older paintball tech, and you can pick up very workable stuff for a few dollars. a lot of it is designed to have an input of 1/8 NPT and adapters to reduce the output back to 1/8 NPT are commonplace. trust me, theres a lot of old pb tech out there, mostly not used anymore but should be readily adapatable for this type of application. old WGP regs for instance, were not externally adjustable, but were great for handling CO2 and had a very good range of adjustability, though its median range is a lot higher then the 150-200 psi you are talking. newer, externally adjustable regs don't handle CO2 quite as well, but low pressue has become a lot more commonplace so they tend to have much lower ends for adjustability. Brand new, a palmers stabilizer is about the best reg possible for this kind of thing currently made and will run you $100 (very few of this model are sold) OD: 1.00"
Length: 4.26"
Output: 1/8" npt 27 male
Input: 1/8" npt 27 female
Max input psi: 1800 (High pressure format 3000)
Psi out: 0-800
Weight: 4.5 oz

the new reg they have is the fatty stabilizer:
92:1 Ratio. 400 psi max output, 600 psi gauge included. Faster recharge rate with more consistency at lower pressures. 1500 psi max input. Handles 3000 psi without damage. Yes, you can use your regulated 4500 PSI tanks with it. Input on the side, output on the other side and top

for 89 new or about 40-65 used (pretty common reg) it would have a better output range.

Volume would probably be the bigger drawback here, but yes, I'll pass on the 4500psi fiberglass/carbon fiber bomb.

there are some steel tanks, but they tend to be lower volume.

[99sr54wd]

700 bucks for a 20# CO2 setup?

i got all my stuff include the IR 231 impact gun from craig's list for less than $100(over the period of couple months, piece by piece).

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w38/tonniechengca/spare/0087.jpg

[trump]

yeah, but SAR was also talking about using paintball tanks for his locker.

I was thinking about this too as a back up. Should I use up all my CO2 for whatever reason, I want my locker still to get me off the trail... I stopped in a paintball store yesterday that happens to be on my way home to get some ideas.

Just out of the trouble of having to find the correct fittings to make it work, I quickly aboundoned that route as far a regulator goes. The guy at the shop made a good point. I've already got a good regulator, if I could use it with a paintball tank I would be good. So, I went home and searched the web and quickly found this and ordered it:

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/The-Adapter-%252d-Paintball-Tank-Regulator-Coupling.html#

It's simply a male CGA-320 thread to female paintball tank thread. For about $13 I feel it's worth the investment. I already had a couple 20oz tanks lying around :p.

[SAR_Squid79]

Just out of the trouble of having to find the correct fittings to make it work, I quickly aboundoned that route as far a regulator goes.

PowerTank has everything you need. You can buy the "Jet Pack" kit from PowerTank (for $300), or you can just buy what parts you need to piece together your own system to run your ARB locker:
http://www.powertank.com/products/sfID1/27

The ARB locker compressor is $250. So even if you did buy the complete Jet Pack kit from PT, it would only be $50 more. And I'd rather run with Co2 - especially since it's easier, less moving parts (more reliable, IMO), and I already have a compressor and a PowerTank.

[trump]

Yeah, I didn't want to get the jet pack since I already splerged on their regulator kit. That $13 part affords me the opportunity to carry a backup 20oz, just in case.

BTW sorry for totally jacking your thread :o.

[SAR_Squid79]

No worries - I got what I needed out of it!

[trump]

Here is pics of that backup idea I was describing:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/BackupC02.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/m_trump/Truck/TheAdapter.jpg

The regulator looks a bit odd on a 20oz CO2 bottle, but its just around to save my ass, not look good. Anyone that might be interested in using this adapter... You will need a tank with a shutoff valve. It doesn't work with pin valves.

[RAB89]

what's up with that? ^ will that air up tires? how? haha i need some info on this one.

[trump]

The info is in the thread if you would read it ;) ...It's a backup for running my locker. I'm sure it would run air tools for about a minute and air up a couple tires.

[SAR_Squid79]

WOW!

...this 20# PowerTank is a lot bigger than I had thought / expected! I think I'm just going to have to mount it standing up behind my driver's seat.

[Mr Tacomi]

WOW!

...this 20# PowerTank is a lot bigger than I had thought / expected! I think I'm just going to have to mount it standing up behind my driver's seat.

LOL!! Too funny... I was waiting for that. I traded down to a 10# from my 20#, but that emptied way too fast, and switched up to a 15#. I can barely get it in and out of it's mount in my shell.

[trump]

:lmao: ...yeah, it's not a small tank.

So, you decided to mount it in the cab then?

[drabnor]

haha

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3522/image1fht.jpg

[TexasChaos]

Not to jack but what is the real advantage to the Powertank when compared to a regular OBA with a compressor and a tank?

[SAR_Squid79]

Not to jack but what is the real advantage to the Powertank when compared to a regular OBA with a compressor and a tank?

Ten different people would probably give you ten different answers - BUT...

I would say that it's all about simplicity. I don't have to plumb air lines, and valves, and relays, and switches, etc, etc, etc. The PowerTank system is stand alone. It won't break. I can move it to use in any of my vehicles, and in my garage. I can run tools off of it. I can fill tires much faster than with compressed air. Co2 goes farther than compressed air.

I would say that the only disadvantage is that the Co2 tank can't refill itself, like a compressed air OBA system.