: One Locker.....Which Diff?


gasbandit
07-13-2010, 07:03 PM
I am finally doing a locker. I was without hesitation going to put it in the rear and seems the general consensus for effectiveness. There is however a trend among jeep owners to lock up the front first rather than the rear and eventually run an lsd in the rear. The idea I believe is to use the locker to "pull" yourself over an obstacle rather than push. I have wheeled with people with such a setup and have been impressed with their capabilities. I am not concerned with on road manners, steering issues, installation difficulty, etc.. I am only concerned with what we be most effective in the dirt. Where would one locker do the most good? Thanks for the thoughts as always!:D

00regcab
07-13-2010, 07:12 PM
Are you mechanically inclined? If you lock the front on an IFS truck, you're going to be 10x more prone to breaking CV's, steering components, etc.

I locked my truck F/R when i did it, so i cannot really give any input on the feel of one vs. the other. However my welded front diff sucks hardcore when it comes time to turn, especially on slick rock. Fortunately I have manual hubs so it doesn't do anything on the street.

Lysmachia
07-13-2010, 07:17 PM
It really should be a selectable locker (ARB) if you are doing it in the front. Otherwise you'll hate hopping out to lock/unlock all the time (Like Nate noted) A rear locker can be an e-locker (Cheaper) :D

vwfastg60
07-13-2010, 08:09 PM
Rear locker first. All i have is a rear right now and thats all i ave had for years and i can go about anywhere i want to go.

GOT COPE?
07-13-2010, 08:16 PM
There is however a trend among jeep owners to lock up the front first rather than the rear and eventually run an lsd in the rear. The idea I believe is to use the locker to "pull" yourself over an obstacle rather than push.

Silly Jeeps. There's a reason they're always broke. And it's probably popular to lock the front because of the typical crappy D35 rear (c-clip or not) would be a waste to lock.

The rear would do the most good. The rear axle is typically the strongest in a vehicle (with the exception of some Jeeps) and can deal with the added stress of a locker better than the front.

The front already has the stress of steering on it, and the IFS is fairly weak to begin with, especially with larger tires.

Locking the front would be acceptable once you lock the rear and desire more capability. As already mentioned a selectable would be best to help steering and parts longevity as far as being able to use it only when you need/want to.

Id do a lockrite in the rear and save for an ARB front. If money isnt an issue then an elocker or ARB for the rear as well.

Id search for a complete elocker axle from a 95-04 Tacoma or 4runner '96-'01?, (it will be a couple inches wider than your factory rear or you can cut and drill your housing for the elocker chunk) from a junkyard for $400-$700 and swap the whole thing in. But it's your truck, do whats most feasible for you.

gasbandit
07-13-2010, 08:57 PM
Are you mechanically inclined? If you lock the front on an IFS truck, you're going to be 10x more prone to breaking CV's, steering components, etc.

I locked my truck F/R when i did it, so i cannot really give any input on the feel of one vs. the other. However my welded front diff sucks hardcore when it comes time to turn, especially on slick rock. Fortunately I have manual hubs so it doesn't do anything on the street.
Shit Nate I didn't know you were welded up front. That must be a joy at times! :)

BigRedToy
07-13-2010, 09:03 PM
I would of done a lockrite for the rear if I didnt do so much street driving. The way I see it my LSD sees a lot of use, much more than a selectable would. The lockrite will just keep the wheels spinning together more often for better traction off road.

The selectable in the front is awesome you just wont be able to "cowboy" over the big stuff anymore :D.

mrdoug
07-13-2010, 09:06 PM
another vote for locking rear first. I'm open in the front of my taco, so i can't say if the front locker is a better aid than the rear... but I seem to do some of the bigger trails just fine. There's certain lines/obstacles that are doable only if you're locked in the front, but I do just fine on the same trails with good line selection.

I do know that the front locker on an IFS rig needs to be used sparingly to avoid breakage.

ff33
07-13-2010, 09:19 PM
I wheeled for a few months w/ just the rear locker before I put an aussie in my front, and with just the front locked I can make lines on the same trails I could not make with my rear locked, but that could be from learning how to drive better over time as well. As for breaking more cv's, I am yet to break a cv, knock on wood.

RedRunnertc
07-13-2010, 09:41 PM
I have run my ARB's "backwards" (lock front first, then be able to lock the rear).

Without a doubt, FRONT locker makes a bigger difference in an IFS rig's capability than rear. Think about it - are you more likely to lift a front tire or rear? With the front locked and the front wheels always turning, it is MUCH easier to get up on obstacles than having an open front and just jamming/pushing the non-spinning wheel into the ledge.

That said, there are certainly more downsides to a front locker - steering, breakage (more on this later), etc.

As for the breakage, I think lockers PREVENT as much/more damage than they cause by limiting wheel spin. The instances where a locker would magnify damage (wedged tire) are more avoidable than the instances where an open diff magnifies damage (wheel in air). If the tire is wedged hard enough to start snapping stuff, you probably aren't making that line anyways and need to back up and try again. If you're open, momentum is the only tool at your disposal - let off the gas to limit the wheelspin and you're not making even the easiest line.

vwfastg60
07-14-2010, 01:50 AM
I can see where a front would b emore helpful but i wheeled IFS 3 years and had a backwards set up for gearing and tire size. I ran some hard lines i never thought i would run. In 3 years i broke 1 CV because of my bumpstop issues and suspension tweaking. In my truck i find i pick up a rear tire first so the locker would keep me moving...4runner may be different but my old runner and the fj are both the same. While you lift that tire the one with all the weight on it still is driving the truck and i found it to be plenty. Solid axle i feel about the same. It would help to get on stuff and not have your line change if the rear moves over but were also talking bigger rocks and pushing a bit harder then i did with the IFS.

I think every driver has a different style and i recomend selectable for both diffs because in co we have all kinds of trails and you can go someplace easy and have fun and push yourself open rather then lock the diffs and walk through it like nothing. I hear a lot about tire wear with a detroit or lunchbox style

00regcab
07-14-2010, 02:33 AM
In my truck i find i pick up a rear tire first so the locker would keep me moving...

This is more accurate for IFS IMO. As the IFS is limited, once the travel is out the truck starts to lean that direction due to most of the weight being over the front. I RARELY lift a front tire, even climbing big lines. Back tires are constantly off of the ground.

I disagree with the lockers preventing breakage. I've broken TONS of cv's that were completely uncalled for, and no driver error involved. Yes, there were a few that were driver error, and obvious why they broke. However, at least 9 of the now 12 (or maybe even more?) were complete BS breaks that definitely would not of happened if the front was not locked.

ike
07-14-2010, 06:09 AM
Hell, i never broke a cv when i wasnt locked up front. and that was 3 years of wheeling almost every weekend and 2-3 week long trips to moab/farmington/az mixed in.

RedRunnertc
07-14-2010, 09:04 AM
Maybe it's different with the Tacoma IFS compared to early IFS. I can tell you every CV I've broken has been my fault - too hard on the throttle with too much gearing. I don't think it's really fair to say CV's should be able to withstand 36,000 lb-ft of torque.

Avsfreak1234
07-14-2010, 09:19 AM
I have broken a handful of CVs while open in the front. most of them were not driver error. I can think of one that was. that being said, I feel like gears not a locker up front would have saved most of my CVs since the breakage was usually due to the fact that I was bouncing around. with a slower crawl I could have been easier on the axles. but im still putting a front locker in anyway to make the bigger lines possible :D

wakkjobb
07-14-2010, 01:18 PM
SAS and selectable locker in front, no more broken CVs... there ya go.

:D

devinsixtyseven
07-14-2010, 01:49 PM
lock the stronger, more reliable axle first...unless they're both bombproof, and then yeah, i'd be tempted to lock the front, so it's easier to get the truck up and over things.

of course if theyre both bombproof, you probably dumped money in to the axles for lockers, too...so it doesnt matter anyway.

lock the rear.

tacotoy
07-14-2010, 02:13 PM
open/open is what all the cool kids run anyways hahahahahahahaha

devinsixtyseven
07-14-2010, 05:23 PM
open/open is what all the cool kids run anyways hahahahahahahaha

if it wants to be an open-open bitch, then drive it like an open-open bitch

:cool::rofl:

00regcab
07-14-2010, 06:13 PM
if it wants to be an open-open bitch, then drive it like an open-open bitch

:cool::rofl:

Note --- this incident of bouncing around, spinning like crazy and hopping resulted in no broken axles. If the front were locked, i guarantee something would of blown up.

gasbandit
07-15-2010, 12:07 AM
Damn you people your supposed to make it easier for me!:mad: The not locking the rear in a Jeep due to the D35 is a good point but I've wheeled with a few that were D44 front and rear and still ran the setup and swore by it. I do agree some with what Troy is saying, I always seems to have a front tire off the ground, I don't think the weight shift is as dramatic on a 4Runner as it is on a Truck I've got a lot of damn weight back there often keeping my rear tires on the ground. The more I think about it and my experiences with obstacles the more I think a locker up front could actually be an edge, especially on an IFS truck. That being said the compromises are too big without a selectable or at least a manual hub conversion. Additionally I can see the sense in locking the stronger axle first. Rear locker ordered today. Thanks for all the input!

GOT COPE?
07-15-2010, 01:51 AM
Another benefit to a rear locker, selectable or not, is it can be used in 2wd when 4wd is not absolutely necessary, or if you get caught with your hubs unlocked and need the extra traction, it can sometimes be enough to get you out of a small mess so you dont have to get out in a mud puddle and lock the hubs.

I say forget the Jeep crowd, in my camp it's common knowledge to lock the rear first.

There, made it easy for you.

Lysmachia
07-15-2010, 02:07 AM
if it wants to be an open-open bitch, then drive it like an open-open bitch

:cool::rofl:

My most favorite Troy quote EVER!

RedRunnertc
07-15-2010, 10:16 AM
Front locker is like 100% of the benefit, but 75% of the problems (especially if a selectable isn't in the budget) ... rear locker is like 75% of the benefit, but only like 25% of the problems.

Manual hub conversion on your truck is easy Seth - unbolt the drive flanges and bolt on the manual hubs. Gives you some more options for dealing with trail breakage.

BigRedToy
07-15-2010, 10:22 AM
Did you go selectable or a lockrite?

mrdoug
07-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Manual hub conversion on your truck is easy Seth - unbolt the drive flanges and bolt on the manual hubs. Gives you some more options for dealing with trail breakage.

you guys don't have to swap out spindles?

RedRunnertc
07-15-2010, 10:42 AM
Nope - preTacos are all full-float front ends, mostly same parts as the solid axle stuff.

extremepaint
07-15-2010, 07:30 PM
i think troy touched on the subject a little bit.

the main reason i believe to selecty a front locker on a jeep is the short wheel base and engine placement

when i wheeled a rental in moab and sedona all that fucker wanted to do was lift the front end.

and since you cant balance on two wheels the back was usually planted. there for no need for a locker you have weight on both back wheels but on on the front. put a locker in the front and go... get it? got it? ... ok not so good?

if you were to compare the horizontal front to back roll center of the taco the weight is forward by a decent margine. and like said before thats the reason we always pic up a back tire. our weight is in the front. the front tires are almost always on the ground and the rear picks up so we do the same thing the jeep guys do. put the locker on the diff that has the tire in the air!

if you ride with a ton of weight in your rear or you take a bunch of fat chicks wheeling, often, then i would do the front

but two wheel burn outs are by far the best reason to put one in the back!

ike
07-15-2010, 10:31 PM
Wait a minute now i am confuesed, put a locker or a fat chick in the back of the truck?

GOT COPE?
07-16-2010, 12:31 AM
locker in the rear, ditch the fat chick, money saved on dinner = locker for the front.

00regcab
07-16-2010, 01:28 AM
locker in the rear, ditch the fat chick, money saved on dinner = locker for the front.

:lmao:

gasbandit
07-17-2010, 08:59 PM
SAS and selectable locker in front, no more broken CVs... there ya go.

:D
Front me the cash and I promise to pay you back :D

Another benefit to a rear locker, selectable or not, is it can be used in 2wd when 4wd is not absolutely necessary, or if you get caught with your hubs unlocked and need the extra traction, it can sometimes be enough to get you out of a small mess so you dont have to get out in a mud puddle and lock the hubs.

I say forget the Jeep crowd, in my camp it's common knowledge to lock the rear first.

There, made it easy for you.
Definitely common among the Toyota camp to do the lock the rear first. Was news to me from the Jeepsters to do the front first.

Front locker is like 100% of the benefit, but 75% of the problems (especially if a selectable isn't in the budget) ... rear locker is like 75% of the benefit, but only like 25% of the problems.

Manual hub conversion on your truck is easy Seth - unbolt the drive flanges and bolt on the manual hubs. Gives you some more options for dealing with trail breakage.
Yeah I know its easy, just something I've been putting off. I get bouts of laziness that prevent me from doing stuff:D Gotta track own some Aisins...

RedRunnertc
07-17-2010, 10:22 PM
Eric has a set off the 90 ext cab

tacotoy
07-18-2010, 01:26 AM
Gotta track own some Aisins...

years of my brain automatically trying to correct horrific spelling and grammar mistakes when people post on the net made me read that wayyyyyy wrong


lol hahahahaha;)

gasbandit
07-18-2010, 09:11 AM
Eric has a set off the 90 ext cab
He mentioned that last week. Gonna hit him up for them Monday. Can you weld my firewall next week before you give up your welder?
years of my brain automatically trying to correct horrific spelling and grammar mistakes when people post on the net made me read that wayyyyyy wrong


lol hahahahaha;)
I knew someone was going to say that, saw it myself after I wrote it. After I get my hub conversion done wanna help me track down some Aisins?

thefatkid
07-18-2010, 11:20 AM
I have some IFS Toyota hubs for sale, also some Warn hubs.

gasbandit
07-18-2010, 03:16 PM
I have some IFS Toyota hubs for sale, also some Warn hubs. If Eric doesn't have his anymore I'll give you a call Brian.

rednecknate
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
To all of you saying That you had cv's break that weren't your fault your an idiot!!.. Of coarse its you fault that truck didn't drive itself to the trail!!!!!!!;)

As for the locker debate.. I can ad to the Jeep thing a little Having owned a shop that did a ton of this stuff... 75% of the newer jeep have a posi already Which is why most jeepers just pout a locker in the front.. It was a constant battle at my shop with idiotic customer's about locking the front ... Non disconect jeep which is most all 84 and up!! suck ass with a locker even not in 4wd becasue it does cause drag on the front end .. try driving on ice even in 2wd with a locked Tj tell me how much you love you locker then... !!

Back on Coarse !! agreed and disagreed on the front locker first... My 2 cents Rear locker.. then Save your money and get an ARB Life is so much better with an Arb .. Try power a 100% locked front end in Sand under power!!

I do agree though Id does seem like IFS rig tend to lift a back tire way before a front.. My T-100 has a pretty good amount of rear travel But tilt's
and lift that back bitch first and stops every time...

I haven't locked mine yet cause im Lazy!! but it will be back Locker and Im trying to Hunt down a 7:25 posi from an early 80's celica to put in the front.. because i have built a few of these unit's and you can tune it fairly well with different shims.. But am not having any luck coming up with one so far..:2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents: My 8 cents worth!!

mrdoug
07-19-2010, 08:10 PM
To all of you saying That you had cv's break that weren't your fault your an idiot!!.. Of coarse its you fault that truck didn't drive itself to the trail!!!!!!!;)


Seen EVERY cv break have you?

00regcab
07-20-2010, 12:21 AM
To all of you saying That you had cv's break that weren't your fault your an idiot!!.. Of coarse its you fault that truck didn't drive itself to the trail!!!!!!!;)


I broke one pulling my truck into my work under FWD power (no rear driveshaft), idling in 1st gear.

Avsfreak1234
07-20-2010, 11:28 AM
i had one CV break while backing out of a parking spot in 2wd...

mrdoug
07-20-2010, 01:40 PM
this one time.. at band camp...

BigRedToy
07-20-2010, 02:10 PM
I broke my arm once...

devinsixtyseven
07-21-2010, 04:32 PM
years of my brain automatically trying to correct horrific spelling and grammar mistakes when people post on the net made me read that wayyyyyy wrongThere was this one episode of Family Guy where Peter keeps opening doors/closets/etc in Quagmire's house, and all these Aisins come piling out...

But seriously, hubs from Thailand and South Korea always seem to be smoking hot, so wear your welding gloves during installation.