different fab techniques

[zszac111]

just want to start a thread for reference so everyone can add there little secrets or things that help them with fabing. include type of fab, techniques and any pointer you can give, hopefully this will help people who havent had to much exp.to get started.So start posting up. ill post some of the things i use up when i get a lunch break.

[AK98Taco]

Here's a simple one for people building their own sliders:

Wherever a tube meets the frame, join it to the frame with a square-shaped piece of plate steel. Position the steel with the flat sides at a 45* angle, like a diamond. Weld that plate to the frame on all four sides. Add gussets if wanted. This eliminates the vertical welds making the seam that much stronger. It also increases the surface area of weld holding the slider or other piece to the frame.

[Bear]

another simple "trick" for bending tubing with a cheaper tube bender such as the harbor freight bender everyone seems to like (including myself~its cheap!)

pack the tube before bending with moist sand. Cap the ends and pack the sand inside. This keep the "outter skin" from wrinkling. (I know there is a technical term for it but can't think of it right now… convoluted! that's it. The sand will help control the convoluting of the tubing.

That and/or heating up the tubing before bending helps also. But that is somewhat of a given.

[tbplus10]

Die grinders make great notches on tubing if you cant afford a real tube notcher.

[Bear]

that and hole saw with a vise, then clean up the notch with the grinder

[zszac111]

Ill post up a few links for everyone to look at.

Tube bending terminolgy, weight and strength- http://vansantent.com/useful_calculations.htm

i have a tube notcher but rarly use it, i just use a chopsaw, here is what i read and it works perfect every time.

The chop saw method, if understood, is a science. With known tube size and joint angle, tube can be notched with great accuracy. The notch is achieved by cutting two opposing angles on one end of a piece of tube, to form a point. The cross-section of this cut will be an elliptical cut due to the shape of the tube. Changes in both of the two angled cuts must be made for the intersection angle and the size of the two tubes being joined. The only real limitation is the max angle of the chop saw.

You start with what I call the base angle. This is the angle of both cuts if the joint was 90*. For an example, I am fitting Two tubes together that are both 1.75", at an 90* joint. The base angle, or the angle of both cuts is 28*. These two cuts must meet at a point, and the point must also be centered on the tube.

What if I want a 15* joint with my 1.75" tube???? You must start with your base angle, which was 28* for 1.75"(remember above), and subtract 15* from one cut, and add 15* to the other cut to form a perfect notch. So now I must make a 13* cut and an 43* cut with the point centered on the tube. Perfect coped joint, with no grinding.

Remember your base angle will change with the tube being cut and the tube that you are fitting to.

Here are a few examples of base angles...

2.0" to 2.0" tube, base angle of 30*

1.75" to 1.75" tube, base angle of 28*

1.5" to 1.5" tube, base angle of 26*

1.25" to 1.25" tube, base angle of 22.5*

1" to 1" tube, Base angle of 20*

Now to fit different size tubes together

1.75" to 2" tube, base angle of 25*

1.75" to 1.25" tube, base angle of 45*

1.25" to 1.75 tube, base angle of 20*

1" to 2" tube, base angle of 12*


`

[zszac111]

other usefull sites for all kinds of fab info. http://www.offroadfabnet.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&viewtopics=all

[zszac111]

if you buy a bender such as the protools 105 or jd2 model 3 the degree ring is a POS and isnt very accurate, you can buy a bend protractor for the CLR of your die from http://www.vansantent.com/ it is a great tool but somewhat expensive for a protractor,

[zszac111]

a porta-band saw is also a decent way of notching tube if you are good enough to make the cuts straight. use same angles as listed above.

[zszac111]

buy the bendtech software if you plan on doing any bending if you are dumb like me. its about idiot proof. you can pick it up here, http://www.vansantent.com/ i suggest the 3d version. the bending 101 for dummies on pirate is good but it takes way to long, with this about 5 mins of measuring and 5 mins of bending if that and the peice is done, with in 1/16th of an inch accuracy is generally achevied

[zszac111]

here is something i made when i have to rotate the tubing for multi-axis bends. used 2 broken lockrite parts, then just stick the angle finder on there and rotate. van sant also sells something similar but this was free :D http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/911175/Picture027.jpg

[WallyP226]

I think a simple but often over looked fabrication secret is to make the brackets first and fit them THEN fine tune fit the hardware. If its an engine or the like put the brackets on it first THEN fit it. to the frame, or alternator, or supercharger or ??????????????????

Starting with the brackets allows them be moved, fitted to both parts ie the imovable part as well as the part being attached to the bracket. Most people know this, but if your just starting out, have zero guidance, fabricating something can be PITA if the item is made first and then trying to figure out how to attach it, fitment and all sorts of issues.

Wally

[dstrbdone]

I stole this from Pirate. It seems to really simplify tube bending. Even I could do it.

http://www.dimensionsmassage.com/tech/bendin_tube/index.html

-Trent

[gary briggs]

Here's a simple one for people building their own sliders:

Wherever a tube meets the frame, join it to the frame with a square-shaped piece of plate steel. Position the steel with the flat sides at a 45* angle, like a diamond. Weld that plate to the frame on all four sides. Add gussets if wanted. This eliminates the vertical welds making the seam that much stronger. It also increases the surface area of weld holding the slider or other piece to the frame.


vertical up done correctly is a very strong weld, all most all strutural steel is done using the vertical up process. what is the purpose of eliminating it?

[AK98Taco]

vertical up done correctly is a very strong weld, all most all strutural steel is done using the vertical up process. what is the purpose of eliminating it?

From what a professional buggy, cage, and suspension fabricator told me vertical welds are not ideal for his uses: they are more time consuming to complete with the same quality and may not be as strong depending on the particular application.

[Kyota]

Keep in mind that that can be pretty dangerous.

Lets see, caps welded on, wet sand filled...water!!! Heat+contained water=massive pressure. Too much pressure+tube that wont hold it=boom. Hot sand and steam and maybe shratenel (spelling?).

Its safer to bake the sand then put it in the tube.

Also like corrosion anyone? Heat a tube with moisture in it sealed like that and it will start corroding much faster. Who sands and paints the inside of a tube?

[gary briggs]

From what a professional buggy, cage, and suspension fabricator told me vertical welds are not ideal for his uses: they are more time consuming to complete with the same quality and may not be as strong depending on the particular application.


ive heard people say they dont like welding vertically on frames because it crosses the "grain" and may lead to cracks, i vertical up'ed my sliders on and have had no problems as of yet

[AK98Taco]

ive heard people say they dont like welding vertically on frames because it crosses the "grain" and may lead to cracks, i vertical up'ed my sliders on and have had no problems as of yet

Interesting. Good discussion.

I just assume that the 45* weld would be easier and quicker which works in favor of the professional fabricator with a schedule to meet.

[ptrautne]

Interesting. Good discussion.

I just assume that the 45* weld would be easier and quicker which works in favor of the professional fabricator with a schedule to meet.

They put the plate at a 45 to distribute the stress better in the heat affected area, you should also round the corners of the flat plate too because the sharp edges causes stress risers.

[AK98Taco]

They put the plate at a 45 to distribute the stress better in the heat affected area, you should also round the corners of the flat plate too because the sharp edges causes stress risers.

Good stuff.

[WallyP226]

My understanding in regards to vertical welds accross structural or weight bearing steel has to do with the what is called heat gradient stresses. A heat gradient stress is where the metal heats up from the welding process, when it cools down it contracts and then leaves a place in the steel that wants to pull the steel in another direction. Over time, the area that has stored energy from not being allowed to bend in the direction that it wants will be the first area to develop a crack.. The way aroud this would be to heat up the material and thus make the steel think its one piece or not weld accross the middle of your structural or weight bearing surfaces of your tubing. Stress releiving is easier on small things but hard to do on things like frames, roll cages that are installed and welded to a rolling chassy. Thus, When its accross the frame or the long part of a "structural" if its going to crack, its going to crack in the stress gradien.

[rokbrkr]

this is what we came up with to eliminate the need to weld a striaght line on the frame when welding sliders on, I used to be a mill wright on a rock crusher before I started CBI, whenever scab plating a broken frame, we always used an oblong diamond shaped "fish" plate, with the pointy ends rounded for the same reasons others have stated. :)

[AK98Taco]

So the problem is actually straight line welds?

That would mean that Steve's plate is probably the best method for butting tubing to a flat surface?

[RaideRNatioN]

So the problem is actually straight line welds?

That would mean that Steve's plate is probably the best method for butting tubing to a flat surface?
Looks like it. I would trust it. However, on my Demello sliders Jason did the square plate straight up and down and welded on all sides. I've bashed the hell out of them and havent seen anything close to stress or tearing on the frame or the welds. I guess it just depends on the application?

[RaideRNatioN]

another simple "trick" for bending tubing with a cheaper tube bender such as the harbor freight bender everyone seems to like (including myself~its cheap!)

pack the tube before bending with moist sand. Cap the ends and pack the sand inside. This keep the "outter skin" from wrinkling. (I know there is a technical term for it but can't think of it right now… convoluted! that's it. The sand will help control the convoluting of the tubing.

That and/or heating up the tubing before bending helps also. But that is somewhat of a given.
Where did you get a replacement die for the harbor freight bender? Ive got the 12 ton hydraulic model but it only has Pipe dies. They're not the right sizes for tubing.

[Kyota]

That makes a lot of sense. Never thought of that.

[tanKoma]

heres a question that pertains to engine swaps, just curious how to balance an 800lb engine at 10 degrees offset for fabbing up the mounts, tryin to figure out how to center it on a frame, oh by the way its a cummins 4bt

[sjvicker]

someone makes engine levelers that you just turn a bolt and it will change the angle of the engine and trans on the hoist

[RENEGADE76254]

figure i would drop in some info...

alot of welding not done by experiance or profesional welders is done using wrong heat setting or wrong wire for application. thats why alot of times a do it youselfer would attempt to make a weld as perfectly by the book as possible. if u do things by a book u know how it will come out. while pros know lots of corners 2 cut that work well and save time and money, but until a person learns these "trade secrets" its best 2 follow the book and learn from others also.

i work for a sheet metal company so i will try and offer up some advice on do it yourself folks.
-medium to thin thickness sheet metal can be bent in a bench vise, simply cut 2 pieces of angle iron, about 2" to 3" longer on each side (unless it will interefer with existing parts then simply make it same lenngth). measure to ur bend line. then position sheet metal between angle iron in vise so the half the angle piece is on the vice and acts as a hanger 2 hold the angle iron on the vice. put bend line half the metal thickness above the angle iron. then take a 2x4 or so and apply even as possible force to bend the metal, pushing away from u if possible. any questions, drop a PM

[gary briggs]

heres a pic of how i mounted mine

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a396/garyebriggs3/DSCN0251.jpg

i relize this is a shitty pic but its 10:15 at night, anyhow this is 2"x2"x1/4" m/s box tube, i made the gusset out of the box tube as well, i welded it vertical up using 1/8 7018 all position rod i stole from work, ive noticed every one welds thier sliders to a plate and then the plate to the frame, can any1 tell me why this is done, i made these before i found TTORA board after seeing some other sliders on here i would have made mine a lil different

[zszac111]

can any1 tell me why this is done, i made these before i found TTORA board after seeing some other sliders on here i would have made mine a lil different

to distribute the load across a larger portion of the frame rather than just the 2x2" area.

[Pirox]

It's also a lot easier to weld that square plate on there while the slider is on the bench or floor. You can then clamp and hold the slider to the box frame much easier than trying to hold a tube up there and weld it. This may be a lame reason but it sure helps when fitting it on the truck.

Kent

[gary briggs]

to distribute the load across a larger portion of the frame rather than just the 2x2" area.




as u can see bye the picture mine nearly spans the whole frame
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a396/garyebriggs3/DSCN0251.jpg

[hurley994]

Heres a little trick i used when using my manual bender. When making your bends keep the dies as far out as possible. it will require more pumps which will be more tiring on your arms, but you will eliminate the little dents caused by the pressure of having the dies closer together to get the bend done faster. this is the bender i use.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/hurley994/bender.jpg

[mt_goat]

This is the best info I've found on frame welding: http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/section_welders.html

Look about halfway down for: "Considerations for Vehicle Frame Welding"

[TaquitoLoco]

When welding...always wrap corners when you can! 1. Prevents water and dirt from getting trapped behind the weld 2. Distributes the load across the entire weld 3. Looks a lot better.

[zszac111]

measure once cut twice or is it the other way around :D , hell i just eye ball stuff on my junk and have been pretty good at it. with in 1/8" or less in most cases. guess it follows the saying "rather be lucky than good"

[sjvicker]

When welding...always wrap corners when you can! 1. Prevents water and dirt from getting trapped behind the weld 2. Distributes the load across the entire weld 3. Looks a lot better.

do you have a photo example of "wrap"ed corners? I just can't picture what you mean.

[tanKoma]

habit ive gotten into especially for stick welding for prepping the base is grind or wire wheel, and compressed air to blast away the dust (u can literally see how much is still left behind), im just really conservative

[TaquitoLoco]

When welding something such as a plate (square) to a frame like on rock sliders...it is better to weld all the way around rather than just the four sides?

Here the weld goes from the top side and then "wraps" the corner to continue the weld down?

http://www.cedarforestproducts.com/images/welds/clean.jpg

I found this picture online...I'll add some pictures of my welds to my computer and see If I can't demonstrate it better.

[zszac111]

bump, someone must have something they want to share with the group :flipoff4:

[twentysixer]

Back from the dead.

[doublej]

36 grit sanding discs work wonders instead of grinding discs and they will leave your part looking alot cleaner than the grinding disc.

[zszac111]

not fab, but rather post fab, but if you need to paint a bunch of shit like a cage, dont use rattle can stuff, buy a decent sprayer, primer, some paint and thinner and have at it, its actually cheaper and a whole lot faster, plus your fingers dont hurt from holding the rattle can button down.

[zszac111]

learn to weld first with O/A then move to stick, then mig and lastly tig, i know money will usually prohibit this but its the best and the first teaches you puddle control

[zszac111]

if you have a 180+ amp (really pushing it) mig machine you can archive spray transfer (great for thicker stuff, higher depositions, great looking bead, NO SPLATTER) just use a 98%Argon/2%Oxygen (not the only gas setup you can use, just the one i use) gas setup, turn the welder up and you will no when it goes into spray transfer mode (goes pretty much silent) This will only work in a flat or horizontal position.

[zszac111]

while tig welding tell your GF/wife to stand next to you in the nude, and she can get a little tan. :D

























(this is a joke, and she may end up kicking your arse from having some pretty bad flash burns)

[joel]

If you need to make a mirror image of a complicated tube notch, use a piece of paper to copy the original and cut out the shape. Turn the paper inside out and apply it to the new piece of metal. Draw the shape on the tube and cut it out. Whala! a mirror image.

[miguelitro]

This should be a sticky.

Lots of good ideas, and tips
Thanks

[zszac111]

2"x.500 walled DOM with 1.25x1" hiems is fawking heavy :D

[DesertTRD]

Heres a few.

1. When tig welding its absolutly important to clean the outside of your material as well as get as much of the inside semi clean as possible.

2. the smaller the gap the better (yea those 1/2 welded gaps = dogshit)

3. if building an intricate product (bumper, chassis, shock hoop) tack it all together first then after your done, do some small tacks all the way around teh tube say like 1 per side, to keep it from warping, then weld it up in sections. do one weld all the way then move to another side or something not near that weld. this will prevent warping.

4. fine tuning with a flapper wheel is perfectly normal LOL

5. always clean up after your doing working on your project, even if for the night still do a full cleanup. you will be amazed at how much more you want to work on that project if you come to it clean.


ive got more but cant think of them
i know ive picked up a few tools that are worth their weight in gold.

[freejake3]

I've been finding the flap-disc very useful prior to paint.

[Kyota]

Well yeah, but only if yo DONT want sand in you cage!

[99FlowedTaco]

while tig welding tell your GF/wife to stand next to you in the nude, and she can get a little tan. :D

























(this is a joke, and she may end up kicking your arse from having some pretty bad flash burns)



LOL ya got some nice flash burn on left forearm yesterday along with splatter burns.. im tan year round but that actually made my arm tender for a few hrs :) its all good now .

[Mossyrocks]

If your using real expensive tubing and/or almost out and have a very funky bend, its real easy to mock up by using 1/2" copper and bending by hand, then copying. Such as one tube that has multiple bends in different directions.

[zszac111]

shit i think the copper might cost more :D , fawkers are stilling it out of AC's on the other side of town.

[sjvicker]

buy a portable band saw, it does everything a full size one will do but is easily portable and can be used on the vehicle. Works way better than a sawzall.

[Mossyrocks]

all you need is one piece though, bend it and bend it and bend it, well you get the point... It'll last quite a while.

[zszac111]

rear 30 spline D60's suck ass, however if you break one or 3 like my buddy did this weekend you will want to find a quick way to get the shaft out so you can get back on trail. If you have spool then just take the other side shaft out and knock it out, if there is a carrier with a center pin, take 3 or 4 welding rods (requires an onboard welder or a welder back at camp) weld them end to end, put a piece of PVC inside the axle, stick the welding rods in, grab with the stinger and give it a good push, Pull shaft out, and stick replacement it. Moral of the story, rear 30 spline D60's suck ass, go 14bolt, D70, or atleast put 35 splined axles in the D60