Mid travel vs. long travel (noobie quest..) [Archive]

Tweeter

08-20-2006, 10:21 PM

I read a post by Tweeter and he said something like " lets limit this ride to Mid and Long travel guys.." ( not exact wording, but close enough.. )

What classifies as mid travel?
What classifies as LT?

Thanks!
AC

What's up? Yea I said that and I recall what you are talking about and that's a close enough quote. Anyways, mid-travel is something that qualifies for being more than stock travel but not enough for being classified as long travel. The amount of travel depends on the vehicle you are talking about so let's talk about Tacomas.

A mid-travel Tacoma would qualify as being one equipped with extended Hoes/Burgs with aftermarket upper control arms such as the Burg's or Total Chaos. Also the numbers up front out back must be greater than stock so relocated 7100's or Donahoe rear reservoir shocks would meet this qualification as well, with aftermarket leaf springs to acheive these numbers.
less than 12" up front and less than 12" out back

A long-travel Tacoma would be one that has a custom or official long travel kit such as JD Fab, Total Chaos, Camburg, ESB, the list goes on...and relocated rear shocks (usually through the bed; cantilever) with aftermarket leafsprings (usually 62" deavers or nationals").
greater than 12" up front and greater than 12" out back

So in conclusion a mid-travel truck has greater travel than stock but not quite enough to be officially "long travelled". And like I said it depends on which vehicle you are talking about. A LT Tacoma may have 13-14" of travel up front where that would qualify as a mid-travel Ranger which can have 7" extended over per side ibeams capable of 20+" of travel...make sense?

anthonycoley

08-20-2006, 10:28 PM

Tweeter

08-20-2006, 10:36 PM

Yes, thanks!

Next dumb quest...

Is it just a cost factor why someone would go MT as opposed to LT or is there some other reason. It seems to me that if you going to be out hauling a... in the desert you'd want LT.

Is MT just stepping mod to get to LT?

There are many reasons some which I probably can't name because it depends on the person. MOST people simply can't afford it or have no desire to since they use their truck as their daily driver (DD) or don't go out enough to NEED it. Kits alone cost about $2,500 plus coilovers $1,000+ and that's enough to scare them away right there. So I would name cost as the leading factor, where as spending $1,500 on the front and $1,200 on the rear could get you a nice MT set-up and still have fun in the desert, most people choose that route.

Also one more thing I forgot to mention is maintainence. Long travel requires a lot of care and tweaking if you want it to work right. IE spring rates, valving, etc. Also long travelling a truck and driving it hard without a full cage bumper to bumper WILL OVER TIME literally rip your cab apart.

Yes, MT is usually a stepping stone to going LT because you learn your limitations with your new-found suspension and gain experience driving offroad which will in turn improve your skills and knowledge so when you do get LT you know when to back off the throttle and how to take certain turns without going over. Most guys on here with LT are more of the experienced drivers however Rojodiablo doesn't have LT, he's more mid-travel...kinda lol...and rips it up!

marnes2986

08-20-2006, 10:51 PM

Before i thought my set up was hot shit! but the more i research the more info i take in. The LT trucks ive seen are sooo beautiful, my truck doesnt even compare. First you start small then you go big. LT trucks is a dream for me. Im planning to get one in the future but after i gain my knowledge and pay my dues and know my shit. One reason i didnt start off with LT is because i know nothing about it. I would be the biggest POSER if i had a sweet ass LT truck and still be in the "Dez section" asking noobie questions. Plus like what tweeter said its a lot of maintenance, alot more components to worry about breaking. Have to think about more stuff, like roll cage, engine mounts, seat belts, new fenders etc..

g'luck ant! im sure youll find what youre looking for....but LT is my dream! haha

Tweeter

08-20-2006, 10:54 PM

Tanto

08-21-2006, 12:56 PM

I think what Tweeter is trying is that if you do go LT you should do it yourself (or with guided help) so you know the ins and outs in case you break on the trail...or am I off my meds again?

drabnor

08-21-2006, 01:14 PM

I read a post by Tweeter and he said something like " lets limit this ride to Mid and Long travel guys.." ( not exact wording, but close enough.. )

What classifies as mid travel?
What classifies as LT?

Thanks!
AC

my truck would be considered mid travel
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9243/huck5oe.jpg

normal length donahoes and camburg upper arm up front, king 14" double bypasses and deaver 7 leafs out back

id consider anything that bolts on(coilover, deavers) to the stock mounts mid travel, anything that doesnt just bolt on that requires fabrication(deaver 62s, some parts of the lt kit[airbumps, bypass mounts etc..]) to be long travel

and yes, even mid travel needs more maintenence than stock

marnes2986

08-21-2006, 03:52 PM

my truck would be considered mid travel
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9243/huck5oe.jpg

normal length donahoes and camburg upper arm up front, king 14" double bypasses and deaver 7 leafs out back

id consider anything that bolts on(coilover, deavers) to the stock mounts mid travel, anything that doesnt just bolt on that requires fabrication(deaver 62s, some parts of the lt kit[airbumps, bypass mounts etc..]) to be long travel

and yes, even mid travel needs more maintenence than stock

Thanks Tweeter and HairyMonkey!!!

But Drabnor youve raised a piece of info ive never seen or thought about before>>>> Adding additional components to your coilovers to improve the susp....was it hard for someone to install the bypasses??? and how is the ride???? This might be something i want to do to improve my susp without going "all out" LT.

Go ahead and flame, but what is the difference b/t shocks and bypasses ( i know theyre those wierd looking things with small tubes stuck to it) can somebody elaborate more haha :flamethro

sorry for jacking your thread anythony

drabnor

08-21-2006, 03:57 PM

But Drabnor youve raised a piece of info ive never seen or thought about before>>>> Adding additional components to your coilovers to improve the susp....was it hard for someone to install the bypasses??? and how is the ride???? This might be something i want to do to improve my susp without going "all out" LT.

Go ahead and flame, but what is the difference b/t shocks and bypasses ( i know theyre those wierd looking things with small tubes stuck to it) can somebody elaborate more haha

sorry for jacking your thread anythony

i think you misunderstood me, i have the king double bypasses out back, just the donahoes up front
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3223/hooppic0ew.jpg

here is a pic i came across a while back(not my setup) see attachment

Tweeter

08-21-2006, 04:04 PM

I think what Tweeter is trying is that if you do go LT you should do it yourself (or with guided help) so you know the ins and outs in case you break on the trail...or am I off my meds again?

Nah you're not off your meds. I actually was trying to hint at that a little, but yea it helps to actually do the stuff yourself and learn what does what and why. Having someone do it for you is nice and your hands stay clean, but I think it's useful having that knowledge in certain situations. And you become less poser-ish too hehe :D

Tweeter

08-21-2006, 04:12 PM

Thanks Tweeter and HairyMonkey!!!

But Drabnor youve raised a piece of info ive never seen or thought about before>>>> Adding additional components to your coilovers to improve the susp....was it hard for someone to install the bypasses??? and how is the ride???? This might be something i want to do to improve my susp without going "all out" LT.

Go ahead and flame, but what is the difference b/t shocks and bypasses ( i know theyre those wierd looking things with small tubes stuck to it) can somebody elaborate more haha :flamethro

sorry for jacking your thread anythony

No worries man. Shocks and bypasses, both are shocks technically speaking and I'm not going to flame you, no worries I'm usually pretty nice about giving out info and tend to be less of a dick unless you really ask a retarded question :lmao: anywho,

Smooth Body "Smoothie" Shock- These are the "regular" shocks you see such as the Bilstein 7100's for example. They may be a single body or have a reservoir containing more shock fluid connected through a rubber hose. In these shocks you can change the "valving" or how fast/slow the oil moves between the piston in the shock body. Still with me? So you can change the valving depending on how soft/stiff you like your ride (no pun intended) or how much weight you're carrying in that specific part of your vehicle.

Bypass Shock- Usually have 2-4 external or OCCASIONALLY internal tubes. These allow the shock oil to flow through the piston and are also revalvable and usually have a reservoir just like it's smooth body counterpart. HOWEVER, the difference is the external tubes which the fluid also travels though simultaneously. You can adjust the rate in which how fast the oil travels on the rebound or compression of the shock. You can also tune 3-4 tube bypasses to have the 3rd tube act as a bump stop by tuning it to have heavier compression the further it is compressed. So the advantage is the fine tuning and damping abilities therefore offering a much smoother ride. Here's a webpage with Fox since I love Fox shocks showing the differences, I'm not being lazy I got class and gotta run! hope it helps..

Shocks (http://www.bajaconcepts.com/bajaracingproducts/index.cfm?go=shocks.cfm&shockbrand=fox)

05tacofreak

08-21-2006, 07:34 PM

No worries man. Shocks and bypasses, both are shocks technically speaking and I'm not going to flame you, no worries I'm usually pretty nice about giving out info and tend to be less of a dick unless you really ask a retarded question :lmao: anywho,

Smooth Body "Smoothie" Shock- These are the "regular" shocks you see such as the Bilstein 7100's for example. They may be a single body or have a reservoir containing more shock fluid connected through a rubber hose. In these shocks you can change the "valving" or how fast/slow the oil moves between the piston in the shock body. Still with me? So you can change the valving depending on how soft/stiff you like your ride (no pun intended) or how much weight you're carrying in that specific part of your vehicle.

Bypass Shock- Usually have 2-4 external or OCCASIONALLY internal tubes. These allow the shock oil to flow through the piston and are also revalvable and usually have a reservoir just like it's smooth body counterpart. HOWEVER, the difference is the external tubes which the fluid also travels though simultaneously. You can adjust the rate in which how fast the oil travels on the rebound or compression of the shock. You can also tune 3-4 tube bypasses to have the 3rd tube act as a bump stop by tuning it to have heavier compression the further it is compressed. So the advantage is the fine tuning and damping abilities therefore offering a much smoother ride. Here's a webpage with Fox since I love Fox shocks showing the differences, I'm not being lazy I got class and gotta run! hope it helps..

Shocks (http://www.bajaconcepts.com/bajaracingproducts/index.cfm?go=shocks.cfm&shockbrand=fox)

EDIT: sorry i posted with my brothers sn
sorry drab i misunderstood :xsmash:

thanks tweeter for your help. So bypasses have the smaller tubes attached to them. How come ive seen trucks running 2 bypasses on each side (mostly street queens)??? Is this a good setup??? I havent seen a yota yet that runs just on bypasses?

str8xedge

08-21-2006, 08:23 PM

marnes2986

08-21-2006, 09:59 PM

If you saw two bypasses shocks per wheel on a street driven vehicle, odds are greatly in the favor of it being for looks only. A bypass shock by itself will not support the weight of a vehicle. You weed need either leaf springs, torsion bars, a coil or a coil-over shock to support the weight of the vehicle.

A bypass shock is a way of fine tuning your suspension without having to dissasemble the shock to change the valving shims. It also alloys you to change the shaft speed at different parts of the travel of the shock. For example you can use one of the tubes on a bypass to stiffen the compression up to act as a bumpstop.

If you want to understand more about the internals of a shock, king's website has some good pictures of a piston and valving shims.

kingshocks.com

If you have any more questions, feel free to shoot away.

thanks! since this folder is brand new i figured i would ask my noob questions
here. On a plus side, nobody can tell me to "Search you fckin noob" because ive already read all the threads in this Dez folder :flipoff3: jk hahaha

But in all seriousness, thanks you guys for helping me answer my noob questions. If i went to DezertRangers i would have my ass handed to me. :flamethro

anthonycoley

08-21-2006, 10:23 PM

You wouldn't be a poser, but I'd probably give you a swift kick to the shin everytime I saw you :p j/k

A long travel truck would be an extremely heavy investment just to be driving around on the street. And yes you have to worry about those little c-clips holding in the uniballs, making sure your core support isn't on the verge of collapsing, no tweaking in the frame, cab staying together, and the list goes on. It's really not a LOT of maintainence just more than a set of Hoes if you know what I mean. But if you guys got questions I got answers so ask away, that's the only way to learn this crap...:D

Yes, I agree now that it's been explained I see there is a lot more to it than dropping 5K on my 4wd to get bolt on kit..

I never put too much thought about all the purposes of the cage. I just assumed it was for safety, but now I understand those posts I've read where people say they take it easy because their truck isn't caged..
Matter fact, I think I'm quoting Tweeter again...

--- See this is good stuff because I'm learning..

anthonycoley

08-21-2006, 10:29 PM

Baja Belk

08-22-2006, 01:12 AM

EDIT: sorry i posted with my brothers sn
sorry drab i misunderstood :xsmash:

thanks tweeter for your help. So bypasses have the smaller tubes attached to them. How come ive seen trucks running 2 bypasses on each side (mostly street queens)??? Is this a good setup??? I havent seen a yota yet that runs just on bypasses?

You're probably talking about something like this:

http://socalsupertrucks.com/trucks/121_2.jpg

Disco street queen trucks like this don't run bypasses, the shocks you usually see side by side are are smoothbody shocks with resivoirs (sometimes attached next to the shock so it almost looks like 4 shocks).

Pretty much the only time you will see true bypass shocks mounted side-by-side are on SCORE Protrucks (class rules).

External bypasses allow the shock oil being pushed by the piston to be displaced to other areas of the shock to aid in compression or rebound (depending on the direction (valve high or low), placement, and length of the tube). Each bypass tube has a valve on it that can be progressively opened or closed by means of an allen screw/locknut combination at the end of the tube. Tighten the screw on the compression tube (blue), the valve closes, the oil has nowhere to go so that stage of compression becomes stiffer, and the oil moves on to the next stage.

In a normal (non-bypass) shock, all compression and rebound is controlled by the movement of oil through holes on the piston. Adjustments are made by stacks of shims (thin, flexible washers) which bend and allow the oil to pass through the piston, thus controlling shaft movement. Thicker shims flex less, allowing less oil flow, and vice versa for thinner shims. So basically, non-bypass and bypass shocks work the same, but a bypass has more flexibilty in adjustment, and can be fine-tuned more precisely.

To put it in perspective, most LT Tacoma's have 2 or 3 tube, 2.5" diameter bypasses (if they do have bypasses in addition to the coilover), while my co-driver's class 1 car has EIGHT tube, FOUR inch diameter King Kong bypasses. The fine-tuning abilities are virtually endless.

miguelitro

08-22-2006, 10:49 AM

4" kong shock mmmmm drooollll...:D

Jared

08-22-2006, 12:28 PM

4" kong shock mmmmm drooollll...:D

God, if I had those, I'd offroad to work each way (60 miles a day). It would probably feel smoother than the highway in a stock setup.

Baja Belk

08-22-2006, 01:15 PM

God, if I had those, I'd offroad to work each way (60 miles a day). It would probably feel smoother than the highway in a stock setup.

Actually it would probably feel like you were riding on blocks instead of shocks. A vehicle as light as a Tacoma would struggle moving that huge piston through all that oil. Talk about overkill. A 2.5" shock is fine for a Taco, and a 3.0" would be the best but you only really need a 3" if you're moving FAST through BIG whoops for a long time. A shocks diameter has almost nothing to do with how smooth it is, but rather how much oil it can hold. More oil = less shock fade (overworked shocks get hot and break down the oil, which basically kills performance). Happened to me at Primm last year. Our setup was way wrong and our rear shocks got so hot they melted one of the zipties holding the boot on. 150 miles of bottoming out on everything. Ouch.

Baja Belk

08-22-2006, 01:23 PM

18" 4.0 King Kong on my buddy's car. About a $2500 shock. Each.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h43/belkster2000/kingkong.jpg

Tweeter

08-22-2006, 02:56 PM

By themselves. They cost that much. Each. Per shock. :D

miguelitro

08-22-2006, 05:05 PM

saw at contingency at the 500 this year, WOW. Obviously they would be over kill for anything less than a full blown race vehical, but dammit bajabelk do you hafta kill my fantasies?:D 2500$ sheeit thats nothing...

Baja Belk

08-23-2006, 09:14 PM

thanks! since this folder is brand new i figured i would ask my noob questions
here. On a plus side, nobody can tell me to "Search you fckin noob" because ive already read all the threads in this Dez folder :flipoff3: jk hahaha

But in all seriousness, thanks you guys for helping me answer my noob questions. If i went to DezertRangers i would have my ass handed to me. :flamethro

Marnes, empty your PMs. Here's the answer to your question:

Actually my jack sucks, it BARELY lifts a corner of my truck. I only have it cuz it was lying around the shop, and I had it fitted to my bed before I knew how weak it was. I recommend the 2 ton Sears Craftsman Aluminum floor jack:

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Tools+%26+Equipment&pid=00950239000&vertical=AUTO&subcat=Lift+Equipment&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

Only weighs 44 lbs, lifts 4000 lbs, and it's fast. We have a couple in our shop and one mounted to my dad's Tundra. It's what I should get here pretty soon. $200, which is actually a good price, and like you said, you get what you pay for.

marnes2986

08-23-2006, 11:42 PM

Marnes, empty your PMs. Here's the answer to your question:

Actually my jack sucks, it BARELY lifts a corner of my truck. I only have it cuz it was lying around the shop, and I had it fitted to my bed before I knew how weak it was. I recommend the 2 ton Sears Craftsman Aluminum floor jack:

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Tools+%26+Equipment&pid=00950239000&vertical=AUTO&subcat=Lift+Equipment&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

Only weighs 44 lbs, lifts 4000 lbs, and it's fast. We have a couple in our shop and one mounted to my dad's Tundra. It's what I should get here pretty soon. $200, which is actually a good price, and like you said, you get what you pay for.

Thnaks alot!!!!!!!!!!

Last night i was reading like every thread in the whole Dez Folder and i came across a thread about this guy who wanted to do the Baja 500 because he just watched D2G. Well the more i read i came across a link to DezertRangers about this group who did the Baja 500 last year. and one of the guys on the trip had a Taco with bolt on King C/O's and they said he did OK. So my question is....How well will my setup do out in Baja (Dhoes allaround)??? Will i get ran off the road for being so slow? Baja is one of my goals before i die haha

Baja Belk

08-23-2006, 11:48 PM

Thnaks alot!!!!!!!!!!

Last night i was reading like every thread in the whole Dez Folder and i came across a thread about this guy who wanted to do the Baja 500 because he just watched D2G. Well the more i read i came across a link to DezertRangers about this group who did the Baja 500 last year. and one of the guys on the trip had a Taco with bolt on King C/O's and they said he did OK. So my question is....How well will my setup do out in Baja (Dhoes allaround)??? Will i get ran off the road for being so slow? Baja is one of my goals before i die haha

Racing or prerunning? (big difference)

marnes2986

08-24-2006, 05:31 AM

Racing or prerunning? (big difference)

ofcourse prerunning for me....the guy wanted to race his new 05 and everyone was kinda flaming him, i think you even posted something in the thread. But for me ive already heard how hard it is to prep and get into a race, let alone the Baja 500. My goal is to just get the oppurtunity to actuallly say "I preran Baja" i know sounds kinda gay but hell how many people can say that (average joes)

I was searching on DezR and I read that one of the GIANT guys' dad pre-ran the Baja 500 with his FJC that had Donahoes. So i guess coilovers wouldnt do that bad?? :confused:

anthonycoley

08-24-2006, 07:20 AM

ofcourse prerunning for me....the guy wanted to race his new 05 and everyone was kinda flaming him, i think you even posted something in the thread. But for me ive already heard how hard it is to prep and get into a race, let alone the Baja 500. My goal is to just get the oppurtunity to actuallly say "I preran Baja" i know sounds kinda gay but hell how many people can say that (average joes)

I was searching on DezR and I read that one of the GIANT guys' dad pre-ran the Baja 500 with his FJC that had Donahoes. So i guess coilovers wouldnt do that bad?? :confused:

Dude!!!
I don't think it's gay at all, but that's maybe because I'm one of those guys who wants to prerun The Baja. Actually, I'd be happy just to do some of the course. It would take too long to do the entire course as slow as I'd have go.. :o

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand you don't need a big-time modded truck to prerun, but you want be able to do it fast without one... I think if you have capable off road truck you'll do fine, as long as you prerun within the capabilities of your truck.

I hope I'm not mixing up the terminology on the term "Prerunning". When I say I'd like to prerun a course, I mean I would like to go drive the course just to get the experience and be able to say "yeah, I preran <insert course name here>.." But, I belive a lot of guys consider Prerunning as sort a pre-race activity to get to know the course. This is obviously not what I'd would doing..

Again, I think if you stick within the capabilities of you truck you will do fine. So, since you're all Ho'ed up, you'd probably do better than my OME'ed truck.. :)

Regards,
AC

Half Baked Taco

08-24-2006, 08:08 AM

My goal is to just get the oppurtunity to actuallly say "I preran Baja" i know sounds kinda gay but hell how many people can say that (average joes)

I was searching on DezR and I read that one of the GIANT guys' dad pre-ran the Baja 500 with his FJC that had Donahoes. So i guess coilovers wouldnt do that bad?? :confused:

Why don't you head out to the local dez with us? I know Mohawk Mikey, Jarrett, and even Phil have tried to persuade you to go. You'll find out first hand how much your truck can handle with those c/o's and you'll feel confident when you eventually head out to baja. As long as you know your truck's ability you'll do fine out there.....It's not like your're racing to finish within the time allowed. Also, "prerunning" doesn't mean you have a specified time allowance to do it.....unless, you head out a couple weeks before a SCORE event. Then you better watch your rear view mirrors LOL

If this makes you feel any better, my DD truck with a drop down handicapp was on the course at night at last years 1000. It handled ok cause we knew the race cars were on the other side of the peninsula lol

Baja Belk

08-24-2006, 08:26 AM

ofcourse prerunning for me....the guy wanted to race his new 05 and everyone was kinda flaming him, i think you even posted something in the thread. But for me ive already heard how hard it is to prep and get into a race, let alone the Baja 500. My goal is to just get the oppurtunity to actuallly say "I preran Baja" i know sounds kinda gay but hell how many people can say that (average joes)

I was searching on DezR and I read that one of the GIANT guys' dad pre-ran the Baja 500 with his FJC that had Donahoes. So i guess coilovers wouldnt do that bad?? :confused:

Depending on the course you would be fine with just coilovers. I preran the 2004 1000 in my truck before LT, all I had was King c/o's up front and 10" King smoothies in the rear with the Deaver 7 pack. We ran from the Bay of LA to La Paz (600 race miles) in 2 days (20 hours drive time). And that was with about 600 lbs of gear in the bed. On a long race, especially one that goes down to La Paz, the courses are usually pretty smooth and fast (think fireroads). However, lately, and especially on a Baja 500 course, I would not recommend prerunning in a 2WD unless you have LT and decent power or you're with one or two 4WD trucks. Don't even think about prerunning San Felipe unless you've got 4WD AND LT. You'll regret it about 2 miles in.

miguelitro

08-24-2006, 11:31 AM

prerunning baja is a little trickier than say prerunning a race course in the mojave in that the baja races are often routed across private property. For this reason Sal Fish of Score sets up a prerunning time that starts a little befor the actuall race, a month maybe alittle less. Of course there are plenty of parts that can be "prerun" any time of the year.
My advise for wanting to prerun baja is to first gett down there with some people who KNOW baja and do a fun trip to mikes or down the coast. Get familiar with the terrain, things happen faster down there and come out worse if you are not over prepared. its a far cry from going to Barstow or Ocotillo Wells.

Yes, watch your mirrors, also watch your front and sides, watch for cows, and watch for the family of 7 in a civic going 10 mph down the same road.

Baja is not something to be jumped into, you need lots of expereince to make it safe and more enjoyable. If you ever want to go down keep an eye out for some posts here. Heck i'd even lett ya be my chase truck for some dirtbike rides we do:D youd be with another truck and we'd pay for your stay at mike's and some gas and acouple margeritas of course.
Mike