Interesting Rumour

[99TanTaco]

copied & pasted from HOF's site (unless your registered you can't view their Off-Topic section)
"Dave, the owner of oak tree, has 192 acres and agreed to sell it to the port authority, for a coal to fuel plant. The port is trying to bring this plant in and it looks like it's a done deal, est cost to build the plant 3.5 billion it's been in the local papers. We were the 2nd camp at oak tree, and helped get it started for Dave, and he said we would always have a camp, even if he closed it down, doesn't look like that now. They est. starting to build in 2008. I hope the other land owner's don't follow his path, but you know money talks!!!"

I know there are always rumours of Wellsville and it's various entrances being shut down but this one sounds like there may be some truth to it. Jason said he will be calling Dave @ Oak Tree in the near future about Halloweenie so he will ask him if theres any truth to it. In the meantime I'll keep snooping around and see if I find anything else. This would really suck for us NE Ohioans.

[OFRD_GRL]

yea check this out...
http://www.offroadohio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=976

[99TanTaco]

:eek: thru your link I found this thread http://www.rrorc.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=30692 which links to this news article http://www.business-journal.com/CoalLiquefactionPlantWellsville.asp this doesn't look good for us Ohioans :(

[SuperPoser]

well... loosing 178 acres out of 5000 acres aint too bad...
maybe this will help build that area back up since all the brick factories closed?

[SuperPoser]

I believe the land for oak tree ends around the creek area by chicken coop? I may be wrong :dunno:

[OFRD_GRL]

either way. ill wheel over people if i have to lOL

[OFRD_GRL]

ignore me im buzzin somethin fierce

[99TanTaco]

I believe the land for oak tree ends around the creek area by chicken coop? I may be wrong :dunno:
"chicken coop" and "Ugly trail" is on there property (at least that's what a guy on a quad that identified himself as the owner told me a few months back) , not sure what else is theirs.

[SuperPoser]

another thing too look at...
buildings usually don't work well on steap hills such as chicken coop...
most likely they would build on the flatter area near the camping part of oak tree... not out in the hills...

on the same note... there would most likely be a fence around all the property so to prevent law suits...

oh well...
just have to wait and see...

has there been any word on the land fill on the opposite side of wellsville? I have herd this rumor for a few years, and thought a year or so ago there was something in a local paper, but don't recall exactly...

[NEV2DEP]

that sucks

[99TanTaco]

slightly off topic but related to Wellsville wheeling rights http://www.jeepinohio.com/viewtopic.php?p=16782503#16782503 this would have been entertaining to watch for anyone who's had the pleasure of dealing with Springer

[OFRD_GRL]

http://www.offroadohio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5679#post5679

[99TanTaco]

I had forgotten about this till I recieved a phone call this eve wanting to know where we went in at and if we had any problems

We went in thru the industrial park. As Rich was unloading his Jeep off the trailer (parked on the street) the Oak Tree dude shows up in a pickup, he pulls up, asks if we're going wheeling and tells us that the entrance at the tracks is closed off and that cops have been ticketing people for going in that way and he suggest we use his entrance. He also tells try's to tell Rich that he'll be ticketed or towed if he leaves his truck & trailer there. Rich informs him he's talked to the local PD and that is a public street and it is perfectly legal to park there. So the guy from Oak Tree says well let me drive down there and see if you can get across. He comes back and tells us it's fenced off. We call BS and drive down there and guess what? Nothing, in fact there are several people camped in the staging area. I'm kind of surprised he would try to scam us like that as I've encountered him on the trail before and he seemed pretty decent, in fact he told me he doesn't charge people for wheeling on his land unless they are using his entrance.

Now for the even more bizzare, this is like 3rd hand info and a little far fetched if you ask me but anyways: I guess Erie Shores was down there Sun and there were US Marshall's :confused: ticketing people who went across the tracks there. I could possibly believe the RR cops or maybe even the local Sherriff's office but I'm kind of finding it hard to believe that US Marshall's would have nothing better to do. If anyone has any info on this please post up but quite frankly I'm pretty skeptical of this story. At any rate Jason and my dad are going to drive down there Fri to do some recon on the entrances and hopefully get to the bottom of this

[SuperPoser]

being as the entrance across the railroad tracks is actually an old road, I am not sure how they would be able to ticket without signs posted... that being said...
us marshalls don't do tickets do they?
I'm with you terry, sounds a bit far fetched...

[99TanTaco]

yea, my topo software for my GPS shows that as a road and we didn't see any kind of signs posted when we went in Sat. I'd like to here from someone from Erie Shores on what actually went down but it appears they are still in the process of creating a forum?

[ABN82MP]

A friend of mine works for Columbiana P.D. He did some checking for me. Checked with Columbiana S.O. and they didn't know anything about it. He checked with Wellsville P.D. and they said it was Norfolk Southern RR Police, which doesnt make any sense since Ohio Central RR owns the tracks...Furthermore Wellsville PD says Norfolk Southern is issuing cites for tresspassing on the land, not for crossing the tracks. This doesnt make any sense either since their jurisdiction ends at the RR right of way.

End of Suppliment
Investigation continues
Dep Jason Crawford
9.19.06
1055hrs

[SuperPoser]

I was under the impression the railroad tracks there were owned and maintained by Norfolk Southern and used by both Norfolk Southern and Wheeling & Lake Erie...

NS supplies coal or coke or something to the Sammis Power Plant, and I think (but not sure) W&LE uses these tracks as they do work in the Mingo Junction area...
I am trying to recall perhaps seeing an Ohio Central on these tracks in the past, but am not sure where it was heading? Perhaps just a reroute as many railroad companies are sharing rail to keep in buisness...

[ABN82MP]

Could be. Maybe NS has some sort of mutual aid agreement giving them jurisdiction on those tracks.

I guess the long and short of it is that all of this info is coming in 2nd and 3rd hand. I'm gonna see if Terry's dad is free to go down tomorrow instead of Friday so I can figure out what's going on.

[SuperPoser]

here's 1 conrail engine, 2 csx engines, and 1 ns engine all in the same consist at yellow creek
http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/30/31/3/98/35/228439835YnKzUJ_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/1228439835043354482YnKzUJ) http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/30/31/3/99/61/228439961CFfggY_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/1228439961043354482CFfggY)

[99TanTaco]

as far as I can tell the tracks are owned by the C&P RR Co.
http://public.jeffersoncountyoh.com/GIS/DOWNLOADS/TAXMAPS/2005/Saline/S01T09R02%20TAX%20MAP%20240.PDF
http://public.jeffersoncountyoh.com/GIS/DOWNLOADS/TAXMAPS/2005/Saline/S07T09R02%20TAX%20MAP%20239.PDF
those are from the Jefferson Co. site, Columbiana Co's site needs a name or parcel # to show anything http://www.columbianacntyauditor.org/propertymax/search_property.asp?l_nm=owner&site=propertysearch&sid=E7301D73FF774B2CB10BC5D5E50E97CD

Hey Jason, maybe you and my dad could take a drive up the FZ entrance and get the parcel # while your down there, I believe he has it posted it up over by his trailer

[SuperPoser]

thanks for the info terry,

I found some info, although not much, on the Cleveland and Pittsburgh Railroad...
http://knorek.com/RR/Ohio/Current/Alliance/Alliance.htm

I'll see if I can find some better history after work...

[Lysmachia]

Well if they shut wellsville down you all have to move to Colorado and run Carnage. Oh wait they are shutting that down too.....

AAARGH!

[99TanTaco]

Jason talked to one of the guys that was there, apparently the Erie Shores people were scammed (like the Oak Tree dude tried to do to us). I guess they were getting ready to go in and he pulled up and told them there were Marshall's down there ticketing people. Most of them fell for it and went in thru Oak Tree but a couple of them didn't have any money so they decided to go check the tracks and there wasn't anybody down there ticketing people

Still waiting on his report from today

[SuperPoser]

I wonder how much money he is making by scamming people going in across the tracks?

[RedRunnertc]

So what about the rumor that he sold off his part of the land?

[99TanTaco]

So what about the rumor that he sold off his part of the land?
http://www.jeepinohio.com/viewtopic.php?p=16782846&sid=3066847cd2efb727044cec7572023635#16782846 I've heard this from a few different people, so there's a good chance that is prob going to happen.

From what I just heard from my dad (Jason feel free to correct me or add anything) I guess there are also some problems with another landowner who owns about 450 acres and doesn't want people wheeling on his land and doesn't seem to understand about the county/township roads & such that run through his property. This guy was erecting no trespassing signs all along the tracks and staging area but I guess hasn't put any on the back sides. Also while we cannot be ticketed for crossing the tracks we do run a chance of getting ticketed/arrested by the RR cops if we are driving along the tracks (in the RR's right of way) to get to some of the trails that run off them. Supposedly they've been enforcing this more actively lately. I'm just posting my interpretation of what my Dad told me, so you may want to wait for Jason to get a better/more accurate version

[OFRD_GRL]

i heard this today from a guy i work with... that rides 4wheelers
i didnt ask where he heard it from tho

[99TanTaco]

Jason's Wellsville report http://www.jeepinohio.com/viewtopic.php?p=16782875#16782875 you can see part of Rawson's property on this map http://public.jeffersoncountyoh.com/GIS/DOWNLOADS/TAXMAPS/2005/Saline/S07T09R02%20TAX%20MAP%20239.PDF maybe if I get more ambitious I'll see if I can find a map with a better view of the area

[ohio03trdtaco]

This isn't sounding good for the future of wheeling in Welsville. :(

[SuperPoser]

My father in law and I went to Wellsville yesterday to tie up some loose ends on Halloweenie and try to get to the bottom of the rumors. Here's what I found:

A guy named Amos Rawson is apparantly owns the majority of the land down there(I spoke to him personally). He has leased out 450 acres of land to the state so they can dump 1 million tons of silt there per year for the next 10 years. This land includes everything from the main staging area to the "top of the hill" as he put it...although I'm not quite sure where the top of the hill is. He has posted several large (2'x4') "No tresspassing" signs along the road through the industrial park. While we were there there were 3 excavators and a dump truck from Saline Twp grating the road and fixing drainage problems.

After talking to Rawson we went to see Warren Springer, the guy that owns Forbidden Zone. Springer said that there are 4 property ownersthat own most of the land we wheel on; Rawson, himself, Dave from Oak Tree, and a woman whose name I forget. Springer said that other than Rawsons land Wellsville is open. I asked him about Oak Tree selling to the port authority and he said that Dave has given the P.A. an option to buy the property but it is not sold yet.

Springer also said that it is the RR police who are down there issuing tickets. This wasn't really a suprise to me because they are down there from time to time anyway.

I did not get an opportunity to talk to Dave, so I dont know what his side of the story is.

We made arrangements with Springer to enter through his property for HW.

interesting,
I had herd about the silt dumb about a year ago while talking to the forbidden zone dude... (I always park there when I take my bike)
this is interesting about the rr tickets...
I also herd there will be a new siding for this silt dump... perhaps this siding will be going thru the staging area which is why it will be closed?
just speculation... still curious how they can close a road though...
ofcourse, it has not been a normal road in what... 60 years?

[RedRunnertc]

It's Old Highway 7 - hasn't been that long really - I think "new" 7 is only 10 yrs old.

[SuperPoser]

It's Old Highway 7 - hasn't been that long really - I think "new" 7 is only 10 yrs old.

about 10 years ago (it may have been longer, but sometime in the early to mid 90's I think), there was a landslide which caused a need to rebuild SR-7 between wellsville and east liverpool.... (the high rock cliff on the west side of SR-7 was blasted during this time to allow greater space for SR-7)...

the highway (SR-7) however followed this route for a much longer than 10 years

[99TanTaco]

heres a thread about Wellsville http://www.northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showthread.php?t=3848

for the lazy I'll skip to the parts we haven't heard yet
http://www.northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showpost.php?p=37132&postcount=44
http://www.northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showpost.php?p=37133&postcount=45
http://www.northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showpost.php?p=37077&postcount=39

[99TanTaco]

and decided to update my map of the area and scan it so the rest of you could view it. If anyone wants a full size version I can email it

EDIT: the black line thru the RR crossing & Tracks (staging area) that runs up past Twister & the Rock Garden is indicated as a road, I just forgot to label it

[SuperPoser]

terry,
sturgis is actually on the south or west side of the creek just to the west of the powerlines shown...
also, what is LR hill?

Last time I was at wellsville with bikes, I took the creek from chicken coop to the railroad tracks... just down stream from the rock garden was a tree down across the creek (but hanging about 5 feet off the gound on one side)...
does anyone know if this has been cleared out?

[ABN82MP]

I would guess that LR Hill is "Last Resort"?

[99TanTaco]

dang engineers, you guys always got to be all technical about stuff :D

Ok technically that is not Sturgiss, that waypoint was taken in the clearing at the bottom, maybe next time I'm down there I'll get a waypoint from halfway up or something

LR hill is a rocky hill climb on your left as your heading toward the rock garden, you come out into a grass clearing, after that I have no idea where it goes. The guys from HOF told me they called it Low Rider hill after Low Rider (I can't think of his real name) who showed it to them, also this way point was taken from the creek bed since we're being all precise now

not sure what tree your referring to

[SuperPoser]

lol
sorry terry
not sure what tree your referring to
the tree...
just a tree down inbetween the rock garden and the tracks across the creek...
it would prevent a truck from following the creek all the way to the tracks, as I had to lean my bike over to get under the tree...

wondering if you or anyone has been down there in the past month to see if it had been cleared...

[ABN82MP]

Ok technically that is not Sturgiss, that waypoint was taken in the clearing at the bottom, maybe next time I'm down there I'll get a waypoint from halfway up or something


Why bother?

[99TanTaco]

Why bother?
is the creek bed on Rawsons's land (Off limits already)? Jefferson Co's site isn't working right now so I can't look. Or is it part of the land we'll lose to the Port Authority next spring

[ABN82MP]

No one knows for sure. We plan on riding there for HW. Missy called Springer today. He was at the court house doing some research as to who has rights to what. Nothing is surveyed or marked so it's really anyones guess.

Springer did say that he found out some interesting info. Apparently this silt dumping project was an ongoing thing up near Toledo till the EPA found out there was a high mercury content in the silt. The project was stopped until the new thing on the Rawson property. Springer was going to try to get some of the local TV stations involved to let the locals know about the mercury contamination and planned dumping.

Be sure to check out my post on the HOF4x4 website. Pretty interesting stuff ;)

Also...someone should go this weekend to the trailride at Mountaineer. If Wellsville is going away this may be a nice alternative...and only 10 minutes further:
http://jeepinohio.com/viewtopic.php?t=2552

[NEV2DEP]

Why bother?
learn how 2 use the quote button :D

[ABN82MP]

Well lets see...I worked 10p to 8a today then had a jury trial @ 1pm. I'm pretty much going on no sleep. Can't get back to sleep cuz my schedule is all fuckered up now. If it really bothers you why don't you fix it el presidente? :flipoff: :D

[NEV2DEP]

Also...someone should go this weekend to the trailride at Mountaineer. If Wellsville is going away this may be a nice alternative...and only 10 minutes further:
http://jeepinohio.com/viewtopic.php?t=2552
Bob at On&Off Road was telling me about this place Fri.wouldn't mind to check it out sometime.

[SuperPoser]

Why bother?
quote repaired...

to answer your question:
the map makes Sturgis appear on the north or east side of the creek...
to someone attempting to find sturgis, they would be looking on the incorrect side of the creek...
simply moving the square dot to the opposite side of the creek would solve this...

glad I could be of assistance :cool:

[ABN82MP]

I still don't see the point. The place is closing down. It's not like future generations of wheelers will be looking at this map and trying to figure out where it's supposed to be. It's like drawing a map to the bathroom on the Titanic

[NEV2DEP]

quote repaired...


glad I could be of assistance :cool:
:rofl: thanks Mike i just brought that up cause Terry and everyone always gave me crap about that ALL the time.U Da Man.

[ABN82MP]

Here's my post from HOF. Good reading:

Well here's some more news. I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine. We were in the 82nd MP Co together at Ft Bragg. He reclassed as a helicopter pilot and is currently assigned to the 160th SOAR (Special Operations Avation Regiment) as a S.F. pilot.

This information is supposed to be classified, so I wont use his name. My buddy told me that they recently recieved orders to patrol the area along the Ohio river where Jefferson and Columbiana counties meet. This is Wellsville fellas. In addition to the air patrols (the 160th flys the black helicoptors with no markings...as someone said they had seen there in another post) they were doing fast rope insertions of the 1st Special Forces Operationl Detachment-Delta (1SFOD-D), AKA Delta Force.

At first I told him I didn't believe him, but he explained to me that due to the Homeland Security Act and the fact that NASA was planning on doing some kind of research in the area the the Department of Defense has deployed these 2 highly specialized units to secure the area.

Apparently Delta will be installing vibration sensors through out the trails and if your vehicle is detected there you will be taken into custody and given a ticket.

Looks like this is really then end for Wellsville.

[99TanTaco]

Well lets see...I worked 10p to 8a today then had a jury trial @ 1pm. I'm pretty much going on no sleep. Can't get back to sleep cuz my schedule is all fuckered up now. If it really bothers you why don't you fix it el presidente? :flipoff: :D
He's just giving you crap because we always used to give him crap for it, it took him forever to figure it out

[99TanTaco]

quote repaired...

to answer your question:
the map makes Sturgis appear on the north or east side of the creek...
to someone attempting to find sturgis, they would be looking on the incorrect side of the creek...
simply moving the square dot to the opposite side of the creek would solve this...

glad I could be of assistance :cool:
I'm not sure why the dot appears so far from Sturgiss, I assure you I was within site of it (in the clearing) when I took that waypoint. Maybe someday if I'm extremely bored I will fix it but I'd like to collect a few more waypoints first before I bother messing with it again, my main objective was to show the qustionable abandoned roads throughout the area. I'm also hoping at some point (if any of the landowners will cooperate) I can take some waypoints at the property lines. I will try to ask Springer about his lines next time I'm down there.

In the meantime if you don't like my dots all you have to do is put the LTB's back on the taco and come out with us and show me where you would like the waypoints taken

[99TanTaco]

No one knows for sure. We plan on riding there for HW. Missy called Springer today. He was at the court house doing some research as to who has rights to what. Nothing is surveyed or marked so it's really anyones guess.
I think you should take a comp day and ride down with me on the 8th so you can help me with my route and also get a idea of what we're going to encounter at Halloweenie

[SuperPoser]

I'm not sure why the dot appears so far from Sturgiss, I assure you I was within site of it (in the clearing) when I took that waypoint. Maybe someday if I'm extremely bored I will fix it but I'd like to collect a few more waypoints first before I bother messing with it again, my main objective was to show the qustionable abandoned roads throughout the area. I'm also hoping at some point (if any of the landowners will cooperate) I can take some waypoints at the property lines. I will try to ask Springer about his lines next time I'm down there.

In the meantime if you don't like my dots all you have to do is put the LTB's back on the taco and come out with us and show me where you would like the waypoints taken

I am hoping to have a run with my father there (on bikes) this weekend...
I could borrow your gps and take as many points as you like ;o) ;o)

fyi,
the ltb's may be going on the taco soon... hehe
I am tired of posing in parking lots...

[99TanTaco]

I'd be happy to let you borrow the GPS though I'm not sure how to get it to you, be sure to give us a full report on what you find while down there.

And that's good news about the LTB's

[SuperPoser]

how durible is your gps?
(I didn't expect you to be so sharing with it ;o)
honestly I don't know if it would be a good idea for me to take it, as one wreck on a rock, and it could be busted good...
I'll let ya know what I find out... I'll be going in thru forbiddenzone

[99TanTaco]

here's a pic of the planned development http://www.ccpa-ohioriver.com/wellsville.html#Note:

Port Authority's news http://www.ccpa-ohioriver.com/News_Archives.html , in the 3rd link from the bottom there's a slightly better pic

I've read on some other forum's they've begun logging and "No Trespassing" signs have been posted but no major changes yet. Oak Tree & Forbidden Zone are still open

[99TanTaco]

http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=4385

[99TanTaco]

looks like Spingers having some problems http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=4361

[NEV2DEP]

:clap: good for him I don't think he has a chance in hell but,can't blame him for trying.

[RedRunnertc]

He's saying he's lost $525,000 since this mess started? Holy shnikes, we're all in the wrong business!

[SuperPoser]

go Springer!
and $525,000... is that since 2004 with the land fill isuue he states in the link?

[99TanTaco]

yea that number seams a little high to me as well, unless this has been over a few years and not just the events of this last several months

some recent aerial shots of Wellsville http://northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showthread.php?t=4086 and yet another thread on Wellsville http://northeastcrawlers.org/necforum/showthread.php?t=4032 though after the 1st page it just gets lost in a bunch of stupid bickering

[99TanTaco]

http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=4727
and http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=4688

[99TanTaco]

looks like as of a few weeks ago the coal liquification plant was still on http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=6544 and http://www.reviewonline.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=6468 can't find anything more current or regarding the epa shutting down the silt dump :(