4 link triangulated with TJ coils [Archive]

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-13-2005, 11:36 AM

AK98Taco

02-13-2005, 12:25 PM

I think it came out very nice!

I'm sure you will cover this question in your update, but just in case: What wall thickness is the tubing for your links, primarily your lowers?

Thanks, and great job!

PappaF2

02-13-2005, 02:29 PM

nice job. I couldn't tell by looking but to you have any sort of bracket/tab attaching the poly bushing to the frame on the inside of the frame rail? just wondering cause it looks like you just ran the bolt through the frame and mounted the bushing in single sheer. IF so that could be the cause of your death wobble.

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-13-2005, 07:27 PM

Thanks for the input, Im using 8 inch 3/4" grade 8 bolts that pass through the frame like you said, but the frame is braced front and back with 1/4" plate, and where the bolt passes through the plates it is welded. Should I consider changing that setup? I think the most pressing matter is the bushings. I reused the poly bushings from the springs I took off, and I could tell they had worn a bit.

AK98Taco

02-13-2005, 07:44 PM

From everything I've read on Pirate and heard from suspension engineers, you should retain the bushing at the frame end if you are using the vehicle as a daily driver, for the specific reasons of death wobble and noise.

Try replacing the bushings and see what goes.

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-13-2005, 09:03 PM

for the links I actually got some .2 wall 1.1 ID DOM, and was gong to have my friend thread them out, turns out he didnt have a #7 pitch point that would fit in such a small tube, so he just turned them out to 1.25 ID (the size of the heims) and then I welded a nut to the end, and sleeved the entire length with 1 3/4" 11 gauge tube. Should be pretty stout, the overall wall thickness is around .3 now. For jam nuts I just cut some normal ones in half. The heims are acutally tractor linkages that you buy for 58 bucks and then just use the 2 heims. One is RH and the other LH thread. The threads are 8" long, so I cut them in half and used the remainder for the bushing side.

roctaco

02-13-2005, 09:05 PM

i like what you've done, especially since everyone says you can't do 4-links on the front end. If I were you, though, I'd make a bracket come from the frame behind the upper link bushing to the outside of those bushings to strengthen that mount substantially. I'd also consider gusseting the backside of the upper link mounts on the 9-inch, just to add more material to that area for strength. I'd love it if you'd do a writeup on your site with details about your choice of materials, measurements, any specific problems you encountered, cost of materials, etc. AND MORE PICS! Thanx.

tacodab

02-13-2005, 11:11 PM

Hi there, I spent this last weekend putting this all together

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link8.JPG

I'll update throughout the week, and I will be at Az rocks testing it out for sure...

I used 9 inch lift coils from a TJ kit, and 1 1/4" heims for the links. at the other end I used poly bushings, but may need to rethink that after experiencing some death wobble last night. Check out the rest at

www.members.cox.net/drvic723

-Jeff
have you considered a pan hard bar? I know the 4 link is not supposed to need it but it will help control the death wobble problem. you are using the 4 link system as a "push" rather than a "pull" as you would in a rear 4 link setup. hard to explain...its like pushing a trailer down the road rather then pulling it. try and keep the trailer from jack knifing. that is kid of what death wobble is in this case. that is all I can think of to help the situation.

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-13-2005, 11:46 PM

tacodab

02-14-2005, 12:11 AM

Thats a good idea it makes sense. Just asking though, if Im not "pushing", im just coasting (not in 4X4) and the vibrations start at a very low speed, if you drove a truck with 4 link in the rear backward at 15 mph would anything happen? If nothing helps the problem, I will definatley resort to the panhard, but tomorrow I will get brand new bushings and update. Thanks
The difference with driving a 4 link rear backward is it has no steering. it may not be cause of the problem, not having a pan hard. but it was a thought. good luck. I will have to check your rig out at AZ rocks :) that 4 link setup is way cool.

PappaF2

02-14-2005, 11:05 AM

dean thats true, any time you run a triangulated 4 link on a front end with "normal" steering (not full hydro) you will get bump steer.

AK98Taco

02-14-2005, 01:16 PM

That should be stout enough. It's a light truck.

AK98Taco

02-14-2005, 01:18 PM

Excellent point!

There is not enough lateral stability in the triangles alone to keep the axle from shifting side to side, especially when steering or flexing.

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-14-2005, 02:45 PM

changed out the bushings, drives awesome now, just needs some profesional alignment.

tacodab

02-14-2005, 02:48 PM

sweet :) good to hear.

AK98Taco

02-14-2005, 05:50 PM

That's good. It's always nice when the fix is something simple.

Tacominator

02-15-2005, 03:27 AM

have you considered a pan hard bar?
Jeff, that looks great! We need to go for a shakedown run sometime this week.

You cannot run a pan hard bar with a triangulated setup. With a triangulated the axle travels straight up and down and articulates, the panhard requires the axle to move left to right as it follows tha arc of the track bar. It would bind like crazy if you added one to that setup. It looks like his draglink is fairly flat which is all that really can be tuned for bump steer...

tacodab

02-15-2005, 08:43 AM

Jeff, that looks great! We need to go for a shakedown run sometime this week.

You cannot run a pan hard bar with a triangulated setup. With a triangulated the axle travels straight up and down and articulates, the panhard requires the axle to move left to right as it follows tha arc of the track bar. It would bind like crazy if you added one to that setup. It looks like his draglink is fairly flat which is all that really can be tuned for bump steer...
good call, see I told you that was only a thought. sorry for the miss info.

DrVic@BallisticFab

02-15-2005, 08:52 AM

here is a pic from last night while I was playing around in the wash, pic is blurry, but on saturday I'll get some good ones

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link10.JPG

WILD YOTE

02-16-2005, 06:42 PM

WOW! :eek: That's wicked bad flexy.

Tacominator

02-16-2005, 08:40 PM

good call, see I told you that was only a thought. sorry for the miss info.
You were just trying to help! Dean, I was just looking at your pictures- what happened to that rolled taco? And that rear axle? Looks rough, yet fun? Nice looking site too, lots of good stuff on there...

tacodab

02-20-2005, 11:45 PM

this form is hard to follow some times.....I missed your post....better late than never.

the rolled taco is my first '01 DC. I was rear ended on the freeway...went on my side....then rolled it 3 times. so I got an '03 DC to replace it and went crazy with it :) LOL. I bent 2 TRD housings and blew up a set of gears in the TRD 3rd... got a rearend off of a 96 taco (non TRD 8.4) and put 4.88 gears and an ARB locker. seems to be better now. check out the pic between the two 3rd members. :) http://people.delphiforums.com/TACODAB/rearend/sidebyside.JPG

jrizman

02-21-2005, 08:25 PM

i luv u dean,u are sooo koor! haha

tacodab

02-22-2005, 02:34 PM

i luv u dean,u are sooo koor! hahadamn it johnny :) I am not coor I am of the coor :) ;)

DrVic@BallisticFab

03-02-2005, 10:15 PM

More pics, a few changes shown

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link1.JPG

the rest are on my site

www.members.cox.net/drvic723

WILD YOTE

03-03-2005, 10:20 AM

What kind of set-up are running in the rear? That flex is crazy-nutso.

DrVic@BallisticFab

03-03-2005, 11:34 AM

The rears are the 63" chevy springs with the overload removed. Using triangulated 12" rs9000s, but I'm going to change that soon enough (the shocks & location). Not quite ready for the rear 4 link just yet, I still want to have a life and a little money... -Jeff

WhyHikeAU

03-03-2005, 06:46 PM

I am looking at thios setup. I have a ford hp dana 44 1977. I plan on using radius arms. What did you use for the upper mounts for the coils. U think i could use the coil mounts on the radius arms?
BTW Nice rig Coils arent used that often (thats why i like the setup)

DrVic@BallisticFab

03-10-2005, 05:25 PM

I tried finding a "bolt on" coil bucket, but all that I found had the shock mount integrated only about 6 inches from the top of the spring; that only allows you to run 10" or so shock length unless you put the lower shock mounts really low. I just made mine and those will have to stay until I can really think of something that will work good (need to get an upper bushing in there). I'm looking for a coil bucket that has an integrated upper bushing and bumpstop for anyone that knows how to source parts better than me... -Jeff

jwbronco

04-05-2005, 07:54 PM

The problem with 4 link or triangulated suspension in the front is that it stays centered. By it staying centered it doesn't allow for a axle shift to keep the steering linkage in phase with axle which means it turns slightly after every bump. Just think A2xB2=C2. The only way to lower the amount of bumpsteer would be to get the angle of steering linkage as flat as possible.

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-07-2005, 10:55 PM

yep, you're right, and its a2+b2=c2... guess I'll just have to go to full hydro setup then... bump steer is not bad at all, its only bad when you jump the truck and the axle is fully droop'd and the truck lands, but thankfully the truck is not in the air too much, I should be fine

YUNADERIS

04-08-2005, 04:53 PM

looks good
i dont know much about link suspension....

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link8.JPG

in that pic,..the frame link, is that a bolt running through the frame? is there any gusseting added or is it not needed?

like is said, i am no expert and just looking for more info on a setup like this

thanks

DynamicCrawler

04-13-2005, 11:42 PM

Looks awesome man, I have a set of 7" TJ coils up the attic. I have been toying with the idea for sometime now, but now that I have all the coilover stuff figured out Im really leaning towards them.

I plan to run a triangulted 4-link front and rear with my front outer links on the outside of the frame, mounted just below the middle of the door .Then the mounts on the axle about 6-8" taller than the tube so my links are more parallel to the ground. Then put a bend in the links to keep the tires from rubbing on the links at full lock.

joeylead

04-15-2005, 08:18 AM

Hi there, I spent this last weekend putting this all together

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link1.JPG

I'll update throughout the week, and I will be at Az rocks testing it out for sure...

I used 9 inch lift coils from a TJ kit, and 1 1/4" heims for the links. at the other end I used poly bushings, but may need to rethink that after experiencing some death wobble last night. Check out the rest at

www.members.cox.net/drvic723

-Jeff

How do the lower links affect clearance? I know that a link system helps approach angles as compared to leafs. But, how does it differ in relation to clearance behind the front tire? I want to eventually SAS, and am considering my options. since you have run both leafs and coils on your front,it would be great if you could describe the differences. Thanks.

YUNADERIS

04-15-2005, 12:20 PM

my 4 cents about links versus leafs....its about tire size and clearance..i was really surprised to see the links guys on 35's at az rocks getting hung up on their lower links and their link crossmembers.... really surprised me...the only advantage of coilovers is ride comfort....coils..not sure....they are flexy suspension for sure..i am sure rides pretty good...i have leafs...i got no gripes...i didnt have clearance issues like the link guys did at az rocks...but i got bigger tires as well...so....go from there...

JOSHHOEFER

04-15-2005, 01:29 PM

Well it is an issue. My lowers are tucked up inside the frame. I've only hung up there once. The stronger you make them the better. All my links are 1.5" 0.437 wall DOM. Hope this helps. -Josh.

joeylead

04-15-2005, 08:49 PM

joeylead

04-15-2005, 08:51 PM

Well it is an issue. My lowers are tucked up inside the frame. I've only hung up there once. The stronger you make them the better. All my links are 1.5" 0.437 wall DOM. Hope this helps. -Josh.

your information is great. It actually made me realize that I will end up with leafs. I am not a skilled fabricator, and will have to get a kit that can be welded into place. I have access to the necessary tools (plasma cutter, welders, and people who know how to use them). I can do the install work myself, I just dont know how to make links and such.

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-16-2005, 12:34 AM

Hey, I am also considering some bent lower links... I have since added an XJ front sway bar and things are great. My only concern now is getting johnny joints onto all of the ends. Leafs are a hell of alot easier to setup granted, but I like this setup more. The axle is 6 inches farther forward than stock, no way to do that with leafs (at least not with my old setup as far as I know...) I know kirk put his up a ways too. I too am considering just ditching the whole coil thing for coil overs, but its not really worth the grand to me now, these work great and ride good. (they flex like mad too, I will have some new crazy rti ramp pics on my site as soon as I can find another free ftp client program to use....) -Jeff

DynamicCrawler

04-16-2005, 12:56 AM

Johnny joints are nice, rebuildable for one thing. The other thing is that heims overtime they wear out, sometimes within a few months and they start knocking and banging because as the metal gets wholard out between the joint housing and the spherical piece. This is often caused by poor setup the heims are pushed beyond their angle of misalignment.

Your coil set up flexes very well from the pics. What size tires are you running. Im wanting to run 39.5" IROKs, I dont think I should have a problem considering I will set up my suspension the way I want to and trim the fenders out extensively.

What is your axle WMS to WMS out of curiousity.

Later

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-16-2005, 12:58 AM

Here's one poser shot

http://www.members.cox.net/drvic851r/4link12.JPG

DynamicCrawler

04-16-2005, 01:00 AM

Not bad, not bad at all. How did you score?

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-16-2005, 10:31 AM

WMS WMS is 67" up front, and the rear has 3" marlin spacers. The score, I don't know, the owner of the ramp wasnt at the store at the time. Yeah, the heims are just too big, and getting in the way of the oil pan b/c they are on the top of the diff, also getting in the way of the drag link. The axle is so far forward the draglink is actually angled on two planes and they smack it. I plan to go full hydraulic with dual cylinders and a self centering orbital valve eventually for many reasons. A few are that I can ditch the tie rod and drag link (maybe not the tie rod, we'll see) but at least the drag link. This is good because the damn bump steer is pretty bad when Im going real fast over big bumps and drop offs. The second reason is to eliminate the IFS box and the pitman arm which crashes into the axle and tierod under full compression, not to mention I have already gone through 3 boxes since the original SAS. Third, I plan to go to 38.5s (right now I have 35s). And fourth, It's damn cool. I figure the whole setup If I use two rams will be just under a thousand bucks, worth it in the long run I think... Oh, and steering resonse is not THAT bad.

DynamicCrawler

04-16-2005, 02:33 PM

Full hydro is the only way to go for trail rigs with big tires and lockers. Like you said it is conveint in more than one way. I personally wouldnt go with 2 cylinders seems more complicated and more hoses to run and I believe the tire rod would have to stay..

I would go with a single dual-acting cylinder then you will be able to ditch the tie rod. The cylinder will act as part of the tie-rod then you will have to make two short tie-rods connecting the cylinder to the knuckles. All you will have going to axle from the truck is two hydrualic hoses. This would also elimnate the need of a pan-hard bar if you had one, like you said no more bump-steer.

Who are thinking about getting your hydro-stuff from? I know a few places you might be able to get it all for cheapier than a grand.

I had a contact at one time that would take what power steering pump you had(volume and PSI) and how many turns lock to lock that you wanted and the distance of travel that your application need. He would then valve the orbital and adjust the ram's travel to your specs. I will see if he is still doing it, I havent spoken with him in over a year.

ravencr

04-16-2005, 06:36 PM

Great job man! I'm hoping to be there someday, and I'm definitely a link fan, because it seems to flex a lot better.

Chris

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-16-2005, 11:06 PM

that would be awesome, youre right about the tie rod, It just seems ALOT cheaper with 2 rams, but If you have a connection for under a grand with a double cylinder that would be awesome. Once you check with the guy get back to me, thanks -Jeff

DrVic@BallisticFab

04-16-2005, 11:09 PM

oh, and no panhard here, my situation is even worse than that... at least they can angle the panhard to move along the same axis as the drag link, my setup just goes straight up and down, no side to side stuff here. Gotta have that full hydro soon!

josho

04-18-2005, 08:25 PM

hey....
if anyone is planning full-hydro, i would go with www.pscpowersteer.com. i met Tom at SEMA and he is a stand-up guy. i spent almost 1K on parts locally, and my hydro never worked at low rpms in my jeep. when i built my comp buggy, i called Tom and he sold me a kit matched to a 22re and i can grab the steering stub shaft AND TURN MY 40S FULLY LOCKED ON PAVEMENT when the buggy is running. excellent product and far cheaper than howe.

call him first on a quote,

josho