Bad news for Bunce

[AxleIke]

the non tread lightly people are at it again. We'll see how much gets left open. :mad:

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The Park Creek project has been on the SOPA list for the Boulder Ranger district for the last two quarters. I have emailed Cat to get a copy of the project documents twice and asked her at every BRDOHV meeting, no luck. At the June meeting they were suppose to be ready to send out, have not seen them. The project is a categorical exclusion so it does not have alternatives and comment periods.

The sand pit / play area is off of road 202, which is at the west end of the Bunce School road 115. It has been there since I moved to Colorado in 1982 and probably way before that.

The problems with keeping it open are the erosion that happens, the creek that flows into it some times, the fact that it is and open area on the forest when all routes must now be designated.

The sand box is also in a non-motorized prescription on the forest from the 1984 forest plan and the 1997 forest plan.

1997 forest plan:

"Motorized travel will be featured on several existing 4WD routes.

Possible candidates for retention include the Middle St. Vrain, Coney Flats, and Rock Creek challenge routes. Most of the trails in the area will be retained and new trail opportunities may be considered between Camp Dick and Allenspark. Closure and obliteration of the Park Creek and Cave Creek Road networks west of the Bunce School road may be undertaken to meet management area objectives for backcountry non-motorized recreation."

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Big Thompson is very concerend about this closure and they would like to find a way to keep the area open - but provide services to close the hill climbs behind the area and keep the road open behind the area.

There are no playgrounds allowed any more, so the solution has to be designated linear corridors for the routes or Cat and team will be in violation of the Travel Rule.

[Lysmachia]

Once again it is all the land owners up there that like not having to pay for acces to their off the beaten path land (te forest service takes care of that for them by maintaining the FS Bunce School Road) BUT they also don;t want anyone else using it to bug them in their peace and serenity.

Sorry land owners m- ya can't have it both ways. My guess is that they are pushing hard for this not because of us 4x4 trucks but because of all the ATV's up there that seem to swarm the place and are a lot louder.

[Prodigy]

I disagree with the land owners stance of wanting their cake and eating it too. If it is a road paid for tax dollars then it is a public road. However the public parts ends at the side of the designated road, hence why you drive through the mudhole and not around it.

[devinsixtyseven]

I'm grumpy today by the wayNo shit ;). Hey, pass me that angry soapbox for a minute :D...

Part of it too...it's Boulder Country, seeds 'n' weeds...being a road accessing private property, I see it eventually paved or otherwise improved, and all the indirect routes made hiking trails, no bikes, no horses, only crunchy people, no rigs, and certainly no quads or bikes, only access to private cabins, hippie retreats, dude ranches, and retiree plots. Heaven forbid they ever have a forest fire up there...maybe they can form a local landowner bucket brigade.

Of course any time anybody in the 4WD community mentions the thought of sending ATV riders elsewhere, somebody with a blind eye always shits themselves trying to show how a guy trying to tread lightly in his homebrew is the same as a guy on an ATV trying to climb a random hill off the trail, or flying through the same muddy, rutted section of road over and over so they look like the ATV advertisement.

Even within our own community there are asshats left and right, last time I was at the Bunce School end at the bottom of the Ironclads loop there was a pack of jackasses with a video camera and a new-ish Tacoma, banging and scraping their way in skinny pedal glory over the big boulder at the main intersection...it ain't just quads and bikes. I even saw a dude at Medano Pass of all places, driving in and out of one of the rutted sections through a meadow so he could get a flex shot. Come awn...OCG is like an hour north, go there and flex.

If stuff like that gets shut down, what's the best way to get to the sport climbs off Ironclads? Rent a horse? Granted I like horses, but still. Is a local granolie gonna volunteer to cart my ass up there in a wheelbarrow, China-style?

How about a muffler for the quad/bike and an attitude adjustment for the riders that don't get it. Some do. Probably most do...and the ones that don't get it don't necessarily mean to misbehave...but...I have a muffler, I keep my ass on the road so I can drive it again years later, and I'm not a no-talent ass clown who's convinced that mud puddles = offroad. Grumble.

Maybe someone can invent an asshat filter to weed the bad ones out at point of purchase.

Whew! Thanks for the soapbox :D...I probably just wrote to much to be readable but it felt good :p.

[Lysmachia]

Truth be told I think this Issue is *really* about the quads. There is an ATV renter (Allenspark ATV rentals that the rest of the locals HATE and want to see shut down. They have had several meetings and will go to great lengths to do what they can to shut this business down including making the trail no fun for us - EVEN when we CoTTORA peeps have been very active in responsible trail use (See Yotatech Tread Below!). I am not pointing fingers at Allenspark ATV Rentals - or the land Owners per say - but I am irritated we are stuck in the middle of their pissing match.

Here is ALL the dirt on the issue...
http://www.yotatech.com/f15/co-bunce-school-rd-trail-repair-day-4-14-a-112751/

[vwfastg60]

I hate hearing about this stuff. My feelings are like this....

The trail was getting good. It was rocky enough to keep people going slow. The quads and the bikes are killing it. In the past year i have seen 10X more atv's on that trail then ever before. I dont think i have ever seen anyone other then a few near stock trucks up there up to this year and i have been running it for almost 9 years now. more now then ever. By taking a blade to it they open up a whole other issue. The quads and all the idiots renting atv's can go out and rip it up and down the trail. Before it was rocky and they had to go fairly slow.

I know that theres a bunch of issues still going on with land owners up there. Everyones selling out too. The gated area that backs the plain crash trail is for sale by the prudential(Im guessing thats the wrong spelling but deal). Also the area by the school with the 2 cabins are up for sale too.

I think they are going about all this wrong. If the issues have been so much worse this year with the ATV rental place coming around then make the trail closed to ATV's leave it up to the truck and jeep people who are not ripping it around and respect the land and the owners. I know it will never happen but i think it should. Every time im up there i almost cream one coming around a corner and some atv is flyin around the corner.

[Prodigy]

Maybe we should pool some money and buy the cabins!

[devinsixtyseven]

Not to mention the riders that see a truck on the trail and rather than sneak by or wait for a good place to pass, just tear off through the woods.

Prodigy if that's the area where I wanted to buy :p...

Too bad those pieces of land are probably going "in the low 500s" or some crap.

[vwfastg60]

I will look in my truck....we got a flyer when we were up there last time. I think the land thats back farther is like 5 something...cant remember the cabins tho.

[Quick Draw]

I am a fairly avid dirt biker, and I am often times embarassed to be associated with 4x4s, dirt bikes, or ATVs.

ATVs are set up so that any idiot can drive them....and they do. Dirt bikes are too easy to ride irresponsibly. 4x4s are often difficult to drive on the same things that ATVs and dirt bikes do, therefore many people drive stupid with them.

Unfortunately the irresponsible ones ruin it for everybody. I slow way down to come by anybody, as I know the roost and dust from my rear wheel can be nasty; Not to mention how much it scares the shit out of people when you blast past them. I always stay on the trail, never take a bypass, and have a quiet pipe. I wave to those that let me by, and show them how many bikes are behind me. I bet nobody remembers me being respectful on the trail; but rather, remembers the asshats who nearly killed them

Up at Red Cone this weekend, I saw asshat after asshat doing something stupid. Families on ATVs in shorts, and sandals, with no helmets. Jeeps slamming the gas to climb obstacles, fishtailing, and nearly killing those of us who would normally be well out of the way with a decent driver. Dirt bikes popping wheelies and doing donuts in the parking lot, very near to other vehicles. This is the least of the stupidity I saw at Red Cone. Beautiful ride, terrible idiot problem.:mad:

From my experience, it seems that those who are irresponsible have no idea about any trail closures, or the damage that they do. They are just out for a weekend ride, and don't give a shit.

[devinsixtyseven]

I bet nobody remembers me being respectful on the trail; but rather, remembers the asshats who nearly killed themI always remember the good ones, they always seem like the exception. Plenty of people riding the farther reaches of the Moab area are cool, they get it...I've also met a few in CO.

I've always said I'd make room for a spare jerrycan if somebody was cool and wanted to dualsport some of our Utah runs to the middle of nowhere. I got nothing against bikes or quads, just asshats.

[DriftinCO]

Well written devinsixtyseven.

[Lysmachia]

Well written devinsixtyseven.

X2! I will always support responsible trail use by ANY type of rider. I think we should host a cottora clean up (AGAIN) of Bunce sometime late this fall before the snow gets too deep (But is too deep for other high trails)

Early November gang?

[00regcab]

I personally ride dirtbikes, and have not left the trail by choice for any reason on public land (i believe its a different story on familys private land, IMO, if you own it, do what you want, but when it comes to public land/national forest/land thats not yours, stay on the damn trail) . I say by choice because of the asshats that have literally forced me off the trail so they could get their squad of impatient asshats through (its ranged from other dirtbikers, to atvs, to jeeps, and even a sandrail buggy a time or to), since they seem to think they own the trail.

Its the people that dont get it that are creating the problems, i purposely left the trail once as a younger kid (11-12) and my dad personally gave me a lesson from hell for doing so lol. Needless to say, that was the last time i did that.

Maybe I'm the only younger person (teen) here from what ive noticed? But i couldnt help but laugh at some of the ignorance in the colorado4x4.org topic regarding this. The "teenager + beer + horsepower" comment inparticular. Yes, there is a larger number of teenagers that have no respect for the public trail systems, but is it really necessary to call out all of them? That could flip both ways (as previously stated by someone in this topic), its like saying its all the damn atv's, or all the damn dirtbikes. No, its everyone, all ages, all interests. Its no ONE specific group/clique/organization.

[Lysmachia]

Another well written point!

[Quick Draw]

Maybe I'm the only younger person (teen) here from what ive noticed? But i couldnt help but laugh at some of the ignorance in the colorado4x4.org topic regarding this. The "teenager + beer + horsepower" comment inparticular. Yes, there is a larger number of teenagers that have no respect for the public trail systems, but is it really necessary to call out all of them? That could flip both ways (as previously stated by someone in this topic), its like saying its all the damn atv's, or all the damn dirtbikes. No, its everyone, all ages, all interests. Its no ONE specific group/clique/organization.

I am 16, and basically said the same thing as you. Not all young people are irresponsible on the trails...

[Lysmachia]

Look if you guys are active on a forum at 16 and are posting this... well I am so greatful. Others your age look to you to lead by example. Wish they would look to me but I am juist not in the same age group. Way to go both of you! :D

[vwfastg60]

Bunce Clean up!!! we can even drag a fence to smooth out the now dirt road that is the main trail.LOL im kidding...Seriously tho it is a good idea and i am down just let me know when and im there.

[Lysmachia]

I am thinking once other higher trails start to close we'll do a bunce clean up. Late october maybe?

[dbbyleo]

Hey Guy...
I'm new here... but just happened to notice the thread and was planning on doing Bunce in the next couple of weekends. I'm pretty new to wheelin' all together, but already aware of the general problem from just reading about it on this and another site.

How effective are programs like Stay the Trail Colorado (www.staythetrail.org)? The other site promotes/encourgaes users to be involved... being a volunteer trail patrol... it seems pretty ligit since you actually have to go through some formally training.

In my opinion... and a novice one at that... proactive effort by the masses is going to be the only to make it right for everyone... landowners and responsible riders. But as riders... we should do what we can.

But I also know whatever "practive effort" we do, has to be part of a comprehensive and effective program.

So I'm wondering if anyone has first hand experience with this program to say whether it's effective (at least from their point of view). I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this long thread. At any rate... I'll be looking into it my self and see what I can do to help the problem.

[vwfastg60]

We went up there friday night and they opened a new trail behind the playground that is now the restoration area. its all gated off but the new trail was fun as far back as we went. Starts out tippy in a washed out area and gets rocky and for a stocker with out a spotter kinda hard. Bart on 33's stock stance and open had to make a 3-4th attempt at a few things. Nice trail!!! Im going to run the whole thing friday night if anyone wants a run.