Pay to Play

[Mike]

April 14, 2005


By Trevor Hughes thughes@times-call.com or 303-684-5220

The Daily Times-Call

P.O. Box 299

Longmont, CO 80502

Fax: 303-678-8615

http://www.longmontfyi.com/index.asp

To submit a Letter to the Editor: opinion@times-call.com (300-word
limit)

Boulder, Colorado - The U.S. Forest Service has for the first time
officially said it will consider charging four-wheel drivers and dirt
bikers to use the Left Hand Canyon off-road area.


Bullet holes mark a sign as Scott Voorhis rides his dirt bike up Forest
Service Road 286 on Wednesday in the Left Hand Canyon off-highway
vehicle area east of Jamestown. The U.S. Forest Service has officially
said it will consider charging off-roaders to use the area. Photo:
Times-Call/Richard M. Hackett
http://www.longmontfyi.com/Assets/newspics/041405r1a.jpg

In a letter to the off-road and environmental communities, Boulder
District Ranger Christine Walsh said her staff is also proposing to
close the off-highway vehicle area near Jamestown from dusk to dawn.


The Forest Service has traditionally not charged people to use the
public lands it manages.


But continuing federal cutbacks mean Walsh's district lacks the money to
adequately supervise the area.


That means either closing it or finding funds elsewhere.


Total closure remains an option, although one unpopular with both the
Forest Service and off-roaders.


"Fees help us," said deputy District Ranger Ed Perault. "It helps us
sustain our ability to manage the area."


According to the planning team, the fees would both generate money to
manage the area and reduce the number of users.


The area, criss-crossed with both legal and illegal roads, is highly
susceptible to erosion and cluttered with trash from target shooters who
plunk old appliances and other junk.


And one of the most popular off-road routes, Carnage Canyon, runs
largely up the bed of a year-round stream.


The area where people drive on that road gets wider each year, as they
strive to find new ways over and around car-sized boulders.


The Forest Service is moving ahead with its fee proposal, with the
attitude that people who pay an entry fee will treat the area better
than if they get in free.


The proposal, dated April 4, [2005] is aimed at soliciting specific
comments from users, environmental activists and area residents.


>From those comments, the Forest Service will develop several alternative
proposals.


One will call for no change to current conditions and the others will
represent increasing amounts of restrictions.


Walsh will eventually pick one of the options or select elements from
several.


Off-road drivers are treading carefully around the proposal.


They recognize that the Forest Service is under the gun to improve
conditions at the OHV area, and many drivers say they're willing to
pitch in.


Valerie Douglas, a spokeswoman for the Rocky Mountain Off-Highway
Vehicle Patrol, said her group represents responsible users.


Douglas is also running the Left Hand OHV greeter program, a volunteer
effort to get drivers to stay on marked trails.


She said a fee would help the Forest Service improve maintenance, but is
seeking assurances the money would remain in the Boulder district.


"The problem I have is that they may not keep that money in the area,"
Douglas said. "I would like to see some accountability for the money
staying in the Left Hand OHV area."


Wednesday, taking a break from riding his dirt bike, Boulder resident
Scott Voorhis said he'd stop coming to the OHV area if he had to pay.


He said he already avoids the area on weekends because it's so crowded.


But he said he could see why the Forest Service would be interested in
changing the way people use the area, particularly the Carnage Canyon
route.


"When I started coming here 15 years ago, you couldn't get a dirt bike
up there," Voorhis said.


The route is now so wide, with so many bypasses, that even only slightly
"lifted" OHV vehicles can make it up.



Copyright 2005, The Daily Times-Call.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/region-story.asp?id=1264

[mudferret]

Mike, I know in the past you've said you're not a big fan of user fees. But let's say not enough of everyone's taxes are being diverted to maintain areas such as that. Would you be willing to pay something like a "trail permit fee" each year? All monies could go to an organization other than the govt who's mandate it: (edited to broaden the scope a bit)

educate users
maintain trails
do some PR for us
Just a thought, the issue was discussed a bit at a meeting I was at last week where we learned that we stand to lose 99% of the trails we have at an area such as that.

[AngryAndy]

I can't (well shouldn't) speak for Mike, but I would not mind paying for a yearly trail permit fee...personally I think we should have these fees, it just might keep the fucksticks who trash the trails home for a day or two. But; I would have to question where these fees would end up...hopefully NOT in some senators pocket...

[mudferret]

A model I have in my mind is based on a system set up in my home province of Ontario. In southern Ont population density is high, yet there's still decent enough snow fall for snowmobiling a couple of months of the year. The trail system is set up by an independant, private body, that sets up the trails, negotiates to have them crossing private land, maintains them, etc... Been positive for the most part, and the police are even out there handing out citations for DD on the trails.

[SteveO]

I wouldn't have a problem paying for the use of an area as long as the money went into enforcement and maintenance of that are. Unfortunatley I think the money would just go back into the Govt. pot and be mismanaged somewhere else. Like Rob said, we're losing all our trails here (except 4 which are basically roads into a campground) and one of the proposals we'll make is to implement user fees but it will never work. ...Steve

[Mike]

Mike, I know in the past you've said you're not a big fan of user fees. But let's say not enough of everyone's taxes are being diverted to maintain areas such as that. Would you be willing to pay something like a "trail permit fee" each year? All monies could go to an organization other than the govt who's mandate it: (edited to broaden the scope a bit)


educate users
maintain trails
do some PR for us
Just a thought, the issue was discussed a bit at a meeting I was at last week where we learned that we stand to lose 99% of the trails we have at an area such as that.


I would be willing to pay a fee if someone could prove to me that 100% of the money was being used to maintain the existing trails and/or open up new areas.


In reality, 10% of the fees would end up going towards the trails, and the other 90% would be lost in a huge bureaucratic black hole.


Actually, now that I think about it, who cares where the money goes, just make it a steep enough fee that most of the asshats would stay home or find somewhere else to go. Now that would be worthwhile to me!


Later,
....Mike

[mudferret]

Actually, now that I think about it, who cares where the money goes, just make it a steep enough fee that most of the asshats would stay home or find somewhere else to go. Now that would be worthwhile to me!




That's probably the best benefit of user fees.

[BigBadBob0]

Actually, now that I think about it, who cares where the money goes, just make it a steep enough fee that most of the asshats would stay home or find somewhere else to go. Now that would be worthwhile to me!


I think you'll just end up with country-club style 4 wheeling areas and some other illegal areas where the asshats go to ruin things. In the end it's all the same.

[WallyP226]

I dunno if its going to stop the problem or not?

On one hand, those whom are there just to drink beer and wreak havoc till 2am, might not want to pay to drink in the woods. For some, the thought process might be, I paid to get in so now I can do whatever I want as long as I can't get caught.

Fees are already part of just about every thing I do anyways, so whats another fee if it helps keep the trails open? I pay as an NRA member, I pay for as a liscensed proffessional, I pay as a deer hunter, the ammunition I use is taxed by the government for maintaining national forrests, we pay to see the potomic river, and yellow stone, and ..............

It seems to me, that so long as 4 wheeling is viewed as a "sport" to "conquer" instead of just a part of the adventure, 4 wheeling is going to be at odds with environmental groups. A four wheel drive is viewed as a quad runner on steroids by most environmentalists, especially so when we treat off roading like "sport". The example of a famous trail up the middle of the creek for instance, as mentioned in the start of the thread, is never going to be acceptable to any true environmentalist.

In Oregon, in the 70s, you could drive many of the old logging trails, when there was a creek crossing we drove straight accross, then when people started driving down the middle of creeks for "sport" the trails were closed. The dead fish, various auto fluids found in the water, the amount of silt stirred up and lack of enough folks to enforce staying on the trails resulted in 25foot tall mounds of dirt piled up in front of the entrences of great trails.

anyways my two cent opinion

[Chadman]

I've wheeled Carnage a few times before, there's a shooting range within the first 2000 or so feet of the entrance and that area is thrashed. Some of the upper playground could use some work too. I find it had to understand how a fee program would work there. Who's gonna enforce the area to prevent jackasses from going in there and shooting things up, and wheelin where they please. Are they going to gate it shut at night. Will there be a booth to collect fees, and make shure people have paid them? Will the money collected really go to that area specifically, or to "The General Fund"? I think a voluntary effort to clean-up, and maintain the area by local 4wd clubs would work alot better. That's probably the best bet to keep the area open.

[Dick Foster]

Well I for one have a problem with paying another stinking fee. What happens to all of my tax dollars now? However, if they had a plan whereby any fees paid came right off my income tax the following year (in total). Then I could get behind it. However, that is only if the fees were actually used for the purported purpose and not misappropriated for some other bull shit.

We let them charge for National Parks and look where we are now. It cost me $20 just to drive through the Yosemite because it's one of the few passes over the Sierras. They have used the park entrance fee to effect what is nothing more than a high priced toll road.

In short, letting government get their hands on more money for whatever the good cause is supposed to be, invariably proves to be a bad thing for you and me.

[bluetaco]

I would be willing to pay a fee if someone could prove to me that 100% of the money was being used to maintain the existing trails and/or open up new areas.


In reality, 10% of the fees would end up going towards the trails, and the other 90% would be lost in a huge bureaucratic black hole.


Actually, now that I think about it, who cares where the money goes, just make it a steep enough fee that most of the asshats would stay home or find somewhere else to go. Now that would be worthwhile to me!


Later,
....Mike

I get disgusted driving thru Lefthand any more...In the twenty years that I have been on those trail the destruction and changes made by users is hard to believe...it has changed so much and mostly not for the better!

http://trr4wd.com/lefthand_grant.htm
the sheer man hours that volunteers have put in to keeping it open is amazing ...and still not enough...

A number of Cottora people will be there on May 1st for the annual clean up!

...hopefully the word can get out for people to start using shooting blankets or at least tarps for collecting there spent shells...they can be reused or recycled and it is safer to keep your footing clear...then folks don't have to worry about unspent shells and spend hours picking up after ward

Pack out what you pack in and then some if need be!!
and stay on the designated trails!

I could go for hours on user fees... but will reserve from comment for the sake of keeping the post sane!!

thanks for posting Mike!

__Layton

[Mike]

We let them charge for National Parks and look where we are now. It cost me $20 just to drive through the Yosemite because it's one of the few passes over the Sierras. They have used the park entrance fee to effect what is nothing more than a high priced toll road.

Dick, I remember that trip well. All of us got ass-raped for $20 that day just to try to get across the Sierra and go home. I thought you were going to climb out your window into the ranger booth and wreak havoc. LOL!

Upon exiting the park I showed the toll booth chick the timestamp on my rape receipt. It was obvious that we were only driving through, and not doing anything that would cost our dear government any money. She told me there were no refunds but that the pass was good for a week. Well, fuck me, I live 3 hours away, why would I drive back and forth up there just to get my money's worth?

Yosemite is nice, if you like to pay big bucks to visit public land, and hang out with a million other tourists.

For anyone who wants to experience the Sierra without all that bullshit, run the Dusy Ershim trail.

Later,
....Mike

[Dick Foster]

Yeah not only is the scenery not spoiled by buss loads of tourists and the golden arches but the several granite domes are whole. Yosomite only has a half of one dome. LOL