Carnage idea...

[00regcab]

The last time i was up there, it was trashed out (as usual).

Now, axleike, dont you volunteer with a group that helps maintain that trail, and is pretty close nit with the forest service?

Is there any way we could get the forest service to close down the trail for a day, maybe even 2, come may-ish, and see if we can get people in there to clean it up?

Yes, its going to get just as bad again unless something more can be done, which im sure there can (trash cans at the 'shooting range', fines enforced, etc. etc, anything possible).

Im sure this idea has been brought up before, but i have been pondering it for the past few days. Along with cleaning could be trail repairs/fencing off-trail areas that have been ran over and over again.

Any input would be great.

[Son of Mayhem]

Lets just let it burn:D

[vwfastg60]

I noticed that carnage/LHC has no trash cans. I doubt it will help because from what i have seen the last few times the shooters are getting really pissy with wheelers going through there. I was told they passed something in 96 saying you cant shoot there? Anyways when i was up the weekend before last there were some guys shooting so i waited and they just kept reloading while the other emptyed a clip. I think they must have done it like 4 times knowing i was waiting and were just standing there before i got close.

I think if they shut the trail down a sunday would be best and have it shut down around the corner so people would kinda be stuck in there and ask whats going on....might get more help and get more people in to saving it rather then wrecking it.

[Prodigy]

Great Idea,

Maybe some research should be done on the shooting ordinance. If it turns out they are there illegally then start gathering license plate numbers and some photos to turn them in. If it is not illegal then there is nothing you can do, nor should anything be done other than suggesting and assisting in cleaning the area up. Maybe set up a few game cameras and start turning people in for illegal dumping.

[RedRunnertc]

Why do we have to shut down the trail? Just post up when it is on CO4x4 and tell people they either help or get caught in the traffic jam...

This isn't really the best time of year to do it - so much of the stuff is buried in the snow.

The shooters are there legally ... but doesn't mean they have to be asses about it.

[Brandon]

FWIW, whenever I've shot there, wheelers have no problem getting through. Everyone stops shooting when someone wants to drive through. Sorry to hear you ran into some inconsiderate shooters.

[00regcab]

Why do we have to shut down the trail? Just post up when it is on CO4x4 and tell people they either help or get caught in the traffic jam...

This isn't really the best time of year to do it - so much of the stuff is buried in the snow.

The shooters are there legally ... but doesn't mean they have to be asses about it.

troy.... reading > you

s there any way we could get the forest service to close down the trail for a day, maybe even 2, come may-ish, and see if we can get people in there to clean it up?


lol

I just thought it would be easier if we got the trail closed for a day or two so we didnt have to fight with people that want to wheel/shoot while we're cleaning up. As im sure that would create all sorts of chaos.

Another idea, i know the greenies wont like it, but last time i was up there, there was a bush blocking the view around the corner to where people shoot and it makes it hard/dangerous for anybody trying to get up/down that trail. Remove the bush would be the best idea IMO. If done right, we could dig it up, move it to a new hole, re-bury it with some nice soil and such and no harm will be done?

Id imagine it would take 20-30 people the better part of a day just to clean up the shooting area alone. Im not a member on co4x4 but could someone that is get something going over on that site?

[ike]

Let us know the time and day and if i am not working i am down to clean up any trail any time.

[march2304]

Ill help to clean anytime. Lets figure something out and get to it. I was appalled at how much crap there is in the shooting area.

[AxleIke]

This is a good idea.

I don't work with a group that maintains that trail, I'm just trying to keep the area open for wheeling. It is only through the struggles of the TRR club that the trail has stayed open this long.

However, cleanups won't really help the current trail. They WILL help myself and those I'm working with to persuade the FS that a NEW area can be opened and maintained, and that people care.

The current trail has been TRASHED. A few people started to not tread lightly, and now, no one can discern what is on trail and off trail. I myself have driven off trail unwittingly MANY times. It is impossible to know where you are supposed to be.

I doubt you'll get the trail closed, but thats not really necessary. Just park the trucks at wide areas where people can get by.

[RedRunnertc]

I think the key is to arrange for a rolloff dumpster to be delivered and picked up so nobody has to shlep all that garbage down the canyon.

[Avsfreak1234]

I would love to do something like this. and maybe not just on carnage but other local trails too.

[00regcab]

I think the key is to arrange for a rolloff dumpster to be delivered and picked up so nobody has to shlep all that garbage down the canyon.

I figure, if we can get 7-8 trucks, we'll have plenty of room/space to get everything out of their in the trucks.

If someone has an offroad type trailer they can drag along, that would help as well. All i have trailer wise is a 3 rail dirtbike trailer.


Jay, i agree with you 100%, however from what ive noticed, carnage is the absolute worst when it comes to cleanliness. Not saying every other trail is perfect, but i have NEVER seen even another shooting range as bad as the one at carnage. Its just filthy, and ugly. I personally believe the BEST way to keep the trail cleaner would be fence off, and seed the shooting range area after cleanup, and get something going to ban shooting on that trail.

I understand that alot of the damage is also done by off-trail throttle bashing, and such. However, if we can start by getting rid of the shooting area, it could be step 1 to getting this trail less traveled. It seems to me its a rather large safety risk to be shooting ACROSS the designated trail anyway.

[Prodigy]

I personally believe the BEST way to keep the trail cleaner would be fence off, and seed the shooting range area after cleanup, and get something going to ban shooting on that trail.


Not being a resident of CO I have no say in the matter. However I am going to advise against even mentioning closing anything. It is movements like that that will close the trail altogether. The green growd would like to close the trails altogether and save the habitat / planet as a whole. It is a designated area and should remain such.

Propose a compromise and have the shooting area moved would be a better way to go about it.

Asking for it to be closed so your the only crowd that can use it is not very responsible. Regardless of the asshats that may visit the area. It sounds liekthe FS is trying to close the trail already so dont give them any more ammo. They can and will twist it to "See even the offroaders want it closed".

[Brandon]

^^^^ Agreed


I personally believe the BEST way to keep the trail cleaner would be fence off, and seed the shooting range area after cleanup, and get something going to ban shooting on that trail.

And that's exactly what the tree huggers say about you wheeling there.

[RedRunnertc]

Actually, somebody posted a thread on one of the gun forums (AR15 something I think) a while back, and the shooters have the exact same problem we do - an irresponsible few ruin it for the responsible many.

All that said, I doubt many 4wheelers are dropping brass in the shooting area and not many shooters are going off trail ...

[Prodigy]

The key here is it is a "Public Use Area" not an ORV park.

[00regcab]

I wasnt trying to create chaos here lol

I agree with you prod, moving it would be the best idea so they are not shooting across the trail. This would be the best way to go about it IMO.

Most of the greenies are just out to piss people off IMO. I cant count the number of them ive heard bitch about the people 4wheeling/dirtbiking, so on and so forth, then when you ask them if they do any recreation they say no. They just want it closed. Thats just ridiculous to me. Like the book cliffs, which now has the vast majority of it closed because of the greenies that have never, nor will ever set foot on any of it in the future.

[Avsfreak1234]

Just to disagree with you nate, Im one of those "greenies." I absoutely believe that we as people need to do more to preserve our natural environment and take care of ecosystems that will be destroyed by overuse. But some of us "greenies" can see that there are great recreational opportunites that can be had while preserving our natural world.

Some people like you said have never even seen some of the land that trails cut through but most true environmentalists have and just chose to get there on foot (and I dont mean Al Gore). However, some of us chose to get there through use of vehicles which should be respected. because of my choice to drive those places it just allows me to pack out more than I pack in and clean up after others which is the goal of your whole idea!

So dont just go saying that all environmentalists are activists trying to piss us wheelers off cuz they arent. Some of them just dont understand our point of view and some wheelers dont understand environmentalists point of view and I would be happy to shed light on either side for anyone! :D

[00regcab]

So dont just go saying that all environmentalists are activists trying to piss us wheelers off cuz they arent. Some of them just dont understand our point of view and some wheelers dont understand environmentalists point of view and I would be happy to shed light on either side for anyone! :D

lol i only said most not all ;)

im not condoning going off trail or anything, but the majority of these trail systems through the rockies have been here longer then any greeny has been alive. Which i guess, is what really bugs me.

[Prodigy]

So dont just go saying that all environmentalists are activists trying to piss us wheelers off cuz they arent. Some of them just dont understand our point of view and some wheelers dont understand environmentalists point of view and I would be happy to shed light on either side for anyone! :D

There is a difference in being pro environment and an activist. Undeniably there are a LOT of self titles environmentalists / activists that want to shut down the trails for good. Then there are clubs like ours that want to keep the trails open and work to do so. It is a never ending battle.

It's the Elitists pricks that piss me off. The ones who grab on to a cause but do nothing to educate themselves about the issue. The ones who hate the oil companies yet they still drive a car. The same type of crowd that let Tahoe burn because they would not let landowners or the USFS clear deadfall. They had no clue that new trees cannot grow if the seeds cannot reach the soil!

Being concerned about the environment and being an environmentalist are 2 totally different things.

Never in a million years would I call myself an environmentalist. IM not a biologist or botanist. I use and care about the trials I enjoy because I am a responsible adult. Nothing more Nothing Less.

[dr350jja]

^ x2
well stated Prodigy

[TowerRigger]

Lemme change the angle a bit on this. How much is dirty brass worth.lol I becha a man could at least buy a couple of beers for his work to clean up those casings. That idea rolled around in my head long before the environmental crap. Money bitches.
I also remember seeing a dead 90s model Dodge truck up there somewhere. That would be a little difficult to clean up.
Other than all that if I'm around I'd love to help clean up stuff.

[spindleshanks]

Just to disagree with you nate, Im one of those "greenies." I absoutely believe that we as people need to do more to preserve our natural environment and take care of ecosystems that will be destroyed by overuse. But some of us "greenies" can see that there are great recreational opportunites that can be had while preserving our natural world.

Some people like you said have never even seen some of the land that trails cut through but most true environmentalists have and just chose to get there on foot (and I dont mean Al Gore). However, some of us chose to get there through use of vehicles which should be respected. because of my choice to drive those places it just allows me to pack out more than I pack in and clean up after others which is the goal of your whole idea!

So dont just go saying that all environmentalists are activists trying to piss us wheelers off cuz they arent. Some of them just dont understand our point of view and some wheelers dont understand environmentalists point of view and I would be happy to shed light on either side for anyone! :D



I'm glad you brought this up. I'm not entirely comfortable with the terms "treehugger" and "greenie" (unless it's a Wyomingan referring to a Coloradon as a greenie, lol). I'm also very conservation minded (much to the dismay of my profession, the automotive aftermarket). Am I a "treehugger"? Well, I don't want drilling on the Roan Plateau and I don't want Uranium mining in Colorado. I want increases in CAFE standards. I want controls in place to prevent the complete destruction of pristine areas. I'm also a gun owner, recreational shooter, hunter, fisherman, automotive enthusiast, and outdoorsman. So you decide if I'm a "treehugger" or a "greenie"
But I think COTTORA would appear much more mature and adult, and be able to command more respect if we would make those terms obsolete. Those terms are juvenile, and worse, they encourage polarization and conflict. We don't want that.
That's all I'm gonna say on the issue.

[spindleshanks]

And of course, I'm more than willing to help clean up. We, the offroading community, are the only people who are gonna congratulate us for our responsible trail use and cleanup efforts. We have to just pat ourselves on the back.

[RedRunnertc]

I figure, if we can get 7-8 trucks, we'll have plenty of room/space to get everything out of their in the trucks.

7-8 Tacomas may barely make a dent.

If we had a rolloff dumpster there, those 7-8 trucks could be shuttling along the trail, not up and down the canyon...

[ike]

even if we only make a very small dent, it is a start. Maybe as a club we should schedule bi-monthly trail clean-up days and rotate trails. This way if one trail such as carnage is particularlly bad we can hit it numerous times in a year and focus on one section of trail at a time. I think this would be a great way for us to make a positive impact statewide while also giving us more oppertunites to get to know each other.

[Prodigy]

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm not entirely comfortable with the terms "treehugger" and "greenie" (unless it's a Wyomingan referring to a Coloradon as a greenie, lol). .
Do you know how to tell when it is spring in Wyoming?

All the license plates turn Green! :)


I'm also very conservation minded (much to the dismay of my profession, the automotive aftermarket). Am I a "treehugger"? Well, I don't want drilling on the Roan Plateau and I don't want Uranium mining in Colorado. I want increases in CAFE standards. I want controls in place to prevent the complete destruction of pristine areas. I'm also a gun owner, recreational shooter, hunter, fisherman, automotive enthusiast, and outdoorsman. So you decide if I'm a "treehugger" or a "greenie"
But I think COTTORA would appear much more mature and adult, and be able to command more respect if we would make those terms obsolete. Those terms are juvenile, and worse, they encourage polarization and conflict. We don't want that.
That's all I'm gonna say on the issue.

I dont think anyone is trying to cause polarization here. In order for there to be a proper plan there needs to be spirited and intellectual debate with input from both sides. Having people with opposing opinion's or different outlook's while working toward the same goal is nothing but productive. Especially when we are all friends.

We are what we are and if an individual becomes offended just because another mentions a sterotype especially when it was NEVER directed at an individual, well they just take themselves too seriously.

Im fat and I smoke 2 of the most unpopular things in todays society that you can be. Yet I live a great life, am good to others and am comfortable enough with what is in my soul to laugh at the ignorant ones who think less of me before knowing me. They can continue on with their judgemental miserable lives without me in it.

[Prodigy]

7-8 Tacomas may barely make a dent.

If we had a rolloff dumpster there, those 7-8 trucks could be shuttling along the trail, not up and down the canyon...
I have a 1 ton, bobcat and 30' flatbed trailer that we could fit a LOT of garbage on possibly even the 90's model Dodge. IF we were unable to get a tail rolled dumpster dropped off, making trips back and forth to my flatbed would not be a bad idea.

Could I get a skid steer in there?

The first step should be for the next person who visits Carnage to find that truck get the vin# and turn it in to the police as abandoned. If it is a stolen vehicle that has been dumped the city will remove it or force the former owner or former owners insurance company to remove it. That would save us a-lot of grief.

[TowerRigger]

skid steer would be iffy. I don't think it would work as well as gloved hands, pokers, and a big pickup bed. All we need is orange jump suits.lol The 30' Flatbed would be great at the trail head.

[00regcab]

skid steer would be iffy. I don't think it would work as well as gloved hands, pokers, and a big pickup bed. All we need is orange jump suits.lol The 30' Flatbed would be great at the trail head.

I think the flat bed and the bob cat may be helpful.

Even if we have to break down that truck into pieces, (as im not sure where its at on the trail) to get it down the mountain and onto the flat bed.

But im with ike, lets focus on a section at a time and keep movin from there.

[TowerRigger]

Ya I saw that truck the first time I ran carnage. I don't exactly know where it is. The dude I was following took me on a different route than I've taken with any of you guys. I was just following. I know I dumped out on the blacktop way further up from where the normal trail head is.

The lack of suspension on the skid would make it a little harry. They don't take real heavy terrain well.

[RedRunnertc]

I think we could get a skidsteer to the shooting area pretty easy ... past that it would be, um, "interesting".

[ike]

Lets pick a date and get this thing going. Even if it is only for small trash the first time. I dont know how far i would take my truck, but i could ride along and help out.

[00regcab]

as soon as the snow clears enough to see the trash.

Mid may?

[ike]

sounds great to me. We just need to make sure that this actually happens now.

[00regcab]

sounds great to me. We just need to make sure that this actually happens now.

i plan to stay on top of this thread, and keep everyone updated.

[spindleshanks]

Have we made this an "official" club event? We probably should.

[spindleshanks]

I dont think anyone is trying to cause polarization here. .

Yes, we are all friends, and we've shown that we can hold a healthy, lively, and intelligent debate. I know that the phrase was not aimed at any one individual, but, like it or not, "treehugger" is meant to be a derogatory term. As such, it does nothing to encourage cooperation, compromise, or mutual respect between those who seek to keep trails accessible and those who seek to close them. I feel that we, CoTTORA can exhibit exceptional professionality and maturity by refraining from this kind of immature "low talk". ....says the guy who started the zombie thread....maybe we're sunk anyway! :D

As for the cleanup, is this trail sponsored by any particular club?
Could we sponsor it?
I think we are both large enough and active enough to undertake the responsibility.
It would be a huge project year round, but let's count how many runs our members have made on this trail in the last year. I'm willing to bet members of CoTTORA ran the trail 50 times in 2007. If we kept the trail clean in an ongoing manner, it would never require such a large scale effort as this.

I'm not entirely familiar with the sponsoring of trails. I know some of you are, so I'll let you take it from here.

[RedRunnertc]

Carnage is sponsored by the Trail Ridge Runners or something like that. They have done quite a bit to keep it open as long as it has been. Which brings up a good point - we should work with them to coordinate this...

[ike]

does anyone know anyone who is a member of that club, or the clubs contact info off hand?

[00regcab]

Carnage is sponsored by the Trail Ridge Runners or something like that. They have done quite a bit to keep it open as long as it has been. Which brings up a good point - we should work with them to coordinate this...

This would be a really good idea, im sure they'd be more then happy to help us do this.

[vwfastg60]

Trailridge Runners.

PO box,7513
longmont co,80501
303-772-0497
www.trr4wd.com.

I had a carnage map on my table its like 04 but its got the info on the back.

Im down for whatever let me know i have trailers and a tractor with a bucket/plow and a bunch of stuff i dont know what it does but we would have to figure a way to get it from the shop.

I broke trail on carnage tonight after work cause this girl i wheeled with last weekend went up the left hand side and wanted to go run carnage but not alone. its slick all the way up and after the waterfall right where it opens up to those 3 lines is solid ice! Sunday we stood there pushing trucks so they didnt slide off trail and get stuck in the washed out section. (just an update cause i was there)

The shooting range will be BAD come summer. I talked to one of the Big guys at kingsoopers tonight while i was making rounds at the stores and he shoots up there everyother weekend and wants to be involved. He says he brings out garbage bags of trash everytime he goes.

[vwfastg60]

just checked out the site....it works.. .Looks like they have meetings every 2nd or 3rd week between 17th and Mt view...I wonder if this stuff still goes on. Id hit one up.

[spindleshanks]

Would it be completely pointless for us to design and install a permanent sign at the shooting area that says something like "Please haul out your brass" or "Pack it in, pack it out",
or "Please remember to leave this area nicer than you found it".
I know it sounds cheesy, but we could make the sign say "courtesy of CoTTORA" at the bottom and it'd give everybody that warm fuzzy feeling.

I'm sure for a couple hundred bucks (like $10-$20 from each interested CoTTORA member) we could have a nice, DOT, highway quality sign made and installed.
And it might actually help keep the site clean.
Either that or we could install one of those fake security cameras up in the trees, lol....no, wait, I would shoot it down.

[fjcruzer]

Would it be completely pointless for us to design and install a permanent sign at the shooting area that says something like "Please haul out your brass" or "Pack it in, pack it out",
or "Please remember to leave this area nicer than you found it".
I know it sounds cheesy, but we could make the sign say "courtesy of CoTTORA" at the bottom and it'd give everybody that warm fuzzy feeling.

I'm sure for a couple hundred bucks (like $10-$20 from each interested CoTTORA member) we could have a nice, DOT, highway quality sign made and installed.
And it might actually help keep the site clean.
Either that or we could install one of those fake security cameras up in the trees, lol....no, wait, I would shoot it down.

You mean another target? :D Perhaps it should just say, "Big Brother is Watching..."

I'm thinking something that approximates the "scary entity" in Lost might help up there...

[00regcab]

LOL eric, you beat me to it.

If we put any sort of sign there, it would be used as a target, and nothing more. Unless we put it down the trail a little upon entry to the trail along the highway.

Even so, i doubt many of them will listen.

[Avsfreak1234]

I like the sign idea but like people said, another target. and who obeys all signs they see anyway? If someone can meet with the trailridge guys and work something out, or we could start a seperate, but parallel sponsorship lets get on it! this whole idea gives me that warm fuzzy feeling that jeremy was talking about.

Id be willing to help organize anything that gets going but dont have the time in the next few weeks to make any initial contacts...maybe after that I could but then it could be too late! (I had to throw that in for effect)

[00regcab]

lol i hadnt really planned on getting this moving, and actually prepping for clean-up until march or so.

Then mid-may will most likely be the first clean up, once the weather warms up a little, and the snow breaks.

[Avsfreak1234]

lol i hadnt really planned on getting this moving, and actually prepping for clean-up until march or so.

Then mid-may will most likely be the first clean up, once the weather warms up a little, and the snow breaks.

well to do anything in may it needs to get organized. at least thats my experience...:thumbs:

[00regcab]

It'll get organized, no worries.

I think its a little early still to set dates, it kinda depends on how the rest of this winter goes.

[A-Bridge]

Go to the Trail Ridge Runners site www.trr4wd.com (don't know how to make it clicky) they have a calendar with LHC cleanup scheduled for May 4th. They do the cleanup every year so I would suggest coordinating with them. I was with a club out of Loveland about 10 yrs ago & some of our members went to help the TRR's. I had to work that day but I was told a roll off dumpster was filled to overflowing, trucks were filled with trash, carcasses of at least 2 dead vehicles were hauled out of there etc. etc. Since the TRR's have been doing this so long they have already done all the planning/organizing, just go along & help.

By the way I'm a newbie from Longmont, just haven't posted an intro here yet. I've been in Longmont since 1969, probably went wheelin' in LHC around 1978 the first time with one of my older brothers. Unfortunately I think responsible wheelers & shooters have become a minority in that area.

[spindleshanks]

Carnage is gonna be busy in May.

[ike]

planning on a week day might make the trail less busy, but then it may hurt our turnout.

[fjcruzer]

Or an early start... but I HATE the alarm in the morning...

[ike]

didnt think of that, but if we were to be at the trailhead at sunrise we would likely be mostly done before the traffic picked up.

[fjcruzer]

Yeah, then I say we do a trail run as an homage! I WILL get up early to help with this...

[Avsfreak1234]

Yeah, then I say we do a trail run as an homage! I WILL get up early to help with this...

werd

[RedRunnertc]

I say we do it in the middle of the day, when the crowd is at its most ... maybe people will "get it" then!

[devinsixtyseven]

I has a question...now, nobody shoot me for asking this but...

Do the shooting clubs/orgs ever clean the place, or is it just the wheelers cleaning up in the shooting gallery?

Maybe, in exchange for being able to continue shooting there, one or two organizations dedicated to target practice in the area could do trail maintenance, seeing as how the wheeling crowd seems to take care of the shooting gallery. That's the rhetorical question of a cynic, what I'm really asking is if anybody thinks we could get a hand from one or two of the shooting clubs, so we're working on this together vs guys like me grumbling about cleaning other's messes.

-Sean

[spindleshanks]

There are no organizations dedicated to shooting at Carnage. Just individuals. Any reputable shooting club would clean up after themselves. Shooting clubs are few and far between, in my experience. When you do find one, it is usually members only with a waiting list for membership, and/or exorbitant fees.

[Brandon]

http://www.trr4wd.com/trrarti.htm

scroll down to the L's for some good reading.

There's nothing saying someone (or me) couldn't just post something on a few of the shooting forums. There's a big group of shooters going shooting this weekend that was organized on coloradoshooting.org.

Troy, the ones that would consider helping clean up already get it.

Taken from the 1997 cleanup report:

As we ate lunch, a mini van parked down at the hairpin turn. The occupant proceeded to walk over to the hillside we had just cleaned up and set up a milk jug, and began shooting. Of course the area he was in was legal to target practice. It was still hard to watch the beginning of next years cleanup before we had finished this one. Finally Lee, of NCTR, walked down and asked the person to go somewhere else due to the 40 plus people in the area.

These are the folks that make the mess and won't help clean up.

[00regcab]

Something that MIGHT cut back on trash, setup a couple 4x4 posts, with some plywood on it to tack up/use paper targets. Im sure the paper will just end up on the ground when done, but it MIGHT help the situation.

Jeremy, yes, it'll be busy in may, but unless you wanna dig through 12"+ of snow to find all of the trash, im not worried about it lol.

As troy said, and im open to it to, lets go up there on a busy day, say MEMORIAL DAY weekend, that saturday, and spend our nice sweet time cleaning up the damn place. I dont care if we dont even get to run the trail. The place needs to be cleaned up.

Upon a little more thinking, i ran carnage late august, and it was TRASHED. They did a clean up mid-may, and it was back to just as bad as it was in just about 3 months?

Maybe we should either get 2 clean-ups going (one early season, one late), or talk to the TRR group, and swap ideas as to our group doing on, then them following later in the season, or vice versa.

Id imagine the majority of the people would be more then happy to help at BOTH.

As for jeremy and his pack it in - pack it out sign... he must not pay attention when he goes to run the trail

http://users.frii.com/jhowell/TRR/ltrr/left0402f.jpg

[RedRunnertc]

Troy, the ones that would consider helping clean up already get it.

They either help or they're stuck in the traffic jam - force them to get it.

[00regcab]

They either help or they're stuck in the traffic jam - force them to get it.

pretty much what im thinking, and with at least 15+ people walking around the 'shooting range', i bet the first person that comes up and even thinks about firing a gun with that many people around isnt going to be happy with us.

[fjcruzer]

pretty much what im thinking, and with at least 15+ people walking around the 'shooting range', i bet the first person that comes up and even thinks about firing a gun with that many people around isnt going to be happy with us.

Ever the optimist, perhaps they would opt to help out, then they could shoot and we could drive... and they could clean up after themselves again...

[vwfastg60]

I have done some thinking over the past 2 runs up there and heres what i have come up with.

The on and off trail lines are not marked so if someone were to go up knowing the on trail lines they would see TONS of off trail lines people are taking. They need to be marked.

Off trail lines are going to happen up there all the time. i have noticed more and more drinking going on up there. It makes people stupid! I went on a run with a few guys last weekend and it WAS the worst run i have ever been on. The 2nd was the week before up there. I have never seen so much BS. I opened my mouth about it whenever i could because it was stupid! The last run i tried to venture off on my own and get down but kept getting caught in the middle of stuck/ Ice making people that just didnt care. i wadnt trying to make it a huge deal with all the drunk people i just was going to go. I helped a few people down that i think felt the same and the last one got spun around on a sheet of ice and while 2 of us tried to help him out drove off trail mowing over trees and almost us. I asked him what that was all about and I got the "I do what i want when i want" response and said there was no need for it and when that trail is closed down know thats a huge part of why. We left after that not giving a S*** about how stuck they got.

My new plan for this trail is throw a trash can out there with a HUGE sign that says....

This trail IS getting shut down its not a if but a when. If you want to make a last chance effort to enjoy it then heres the trash can for your shells. No drinking and driving and even if you didnt make the mess clean it up! If you dont think this is a serious issue then you might as well look for new trail to trash. Now shoot the shit out of this sign cause its going to happen anyways.
Thanks for the 5 minutes it took you to sound out every word on here and the holes so the wind doesnt blow this down.

[Asha'man]

I know some of the guys from Colorado AR15 (www.co-ar15.com) have tried to coordinate cleanup days with some of the local 4x4 clubs at Lefthand, but I'm not sure if it's happened recently. Believe it or not, there are some (or there is at least one) informal shooting club that is halfway responsible at shoots.

[AxleIke]

Just back from the BRDOHV meeting.

Looks like the end of this fiscal year is the deadline for this trail.

We'll see if any more delay is possible, but I doubt it. Good news is, I've just gotten wind that there are a bunch more trail options in the area, some of which providing superb challenge.

But yeah, budget is already there for full post and cable of the entire carnage canyon route. Due to be finished by Oct 1st.

[ike]

I hate when they do that to trails.

[Quick Draw]

So I see that we have a Left Hand Canyon Cleanup day on the 2008 calendar set for May 4th. Is this still a go? I already asked for that Sunday off of work. Do we have a more formal planning thread somewhere that I'm just not seeing?

[vwfastg60]

Just back from the BRDOHV meeting.

Looks like the end of this fiscal year is the deadline for this trail.

We'll see if any more delay is possible, but I doubt it. Good news is, I've just gotten wind that there are a bunch more trail options in the area, some of which providing superb challenge.

But yeah, budget is already there for full post and cable of the entire carnage canyon route. Due to be finished by Oct 1st.

Wait does this mean just block off whats on and off trail like they did with upper carnage or like gate the thing off all together?

[AxleIke]

Wait does this mean just block off whats on and off trail like they did with upper carnage or like gate the thing off all together?

Fully gated. You won't be able to drive up the canyon anymore.

I'm working on getting the new route proposal posted up.

[RedRunnertc]

The TRR cleanup is slated for next weekend - the 26th

[Quick Draw]

Umm...the calendar says May 4th. Where does it say the 26th? This sucks, since I already asked for that off, and know that I'm working the 26th.

[RedRunnertc]

Oh, we'll wheel SOMEWHERE on the 4th!

The club that sponsors Lefthand is doing their cleanup on the 26th ... thought I posted it somewhere... they bring in dumpsters and the whole deal.

[bluetaco]

Umm...the calendar says May 4th. Where does it say the 26th? This sucks, since I already asked for that off, and know that I'm working the 26th.

If it makes you feel better, we can find another trail to clean on the 4th!
cigarette butts, diapers, trucker bombs and all!

there is a shooting spot off of Stove Prairie Rd that can use a clean up crew!

Last year(or some year) the Lefthand Cleanup ended up getting rain delayed and set for the following week...so you still have a chance for it to happen on the 4th

[vwfastg60]

Fully gated. You won't be able to drive up the canyon anymore.

I'm working on getting the new route proposal posted up.

Ok i was unclear on this. I wonder how long that gate lasts while the new route is made.

I cant wait to see the new plans.