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Old 04-30-2012, 04:48 PM   #61
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I forgot about Jordan's truck! Wish the pictures from jordansrealm where still online. I used to always go look at the trucks on his page for inspiration.

Good question on Tortuga...
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:07 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhk100 View Post
Holy crap in that victorville TT vid. The piece in it's final stages, is that Pat's old white yota too? Is that also the orange Ranger that I want to say Cliff had and let Vance run once or twice or something too?

Where's the video with the old green dalton truck flying into the arena???


Also, I'll say the first truck with leaf springs that caught my eye back in the day was jason z's tacoma. The droop on that thing looked broke it had so much!
just so you know. the rear bypasses on my truck were off of Jason's tacoma. bought em off him when i put my 62's on.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:23 AM   #63
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Well felix, i got a couple numbers for you.

I talked to my buddy justin with a single cab yota pickup with f55 pack (pretty beat down pack). He said he was using a spread of around 56", 12" shackle through the center of the frame rail. We did spend time moving the shackle pivot around and tested it some (last year..maybe 2). We tried above the frame under the frame, and eventually the center of the frame, and the center of the frame was the best. He was using 2.5 bypasses leanded forward maybe 15deg. He is now on links, so i cant get numbers anymore ....but it was VERY smooth. Smoothest leaf truck ive ever been in. He also hammers the throttle EVERYWHERE to maybe give more info . . . something that might relate to the antisquat numbers.

After talking with him, i checked the tacoma backhalf sitting in my shop that was setup by link motorsports and the pivots were at a spread of 56" with 12" shackle mounted right on top of the frame using a f67 pack. I never rode in it, but the owner said it did well. Not sure how well, but i was surprised that it was the same dimension that justin gave me

Both trucks had dual spare 33s at the rear bumper and full cages tied into bed cage.


As far as the weight moved from the cg, ive actually never thought of it that way. The comment i made about weight outside of the suspension was something i got from a vehicle dynamics book and class and i know its true, but it can all be related back to distance from the cg. A moment equation about the cg with distances of the weights and reactions from the suspension points would all relate back....and honestly it would be easier to setup all the weights and suspension forces about the cg because it can all be made into one equation (or multiple when you get into the dynamics). Moving your shackle pivot around would change the way the force is applied through the springs and would also change the distance from the cg that the shackle puts the load back into the frame. The cg equation could be a thing you can someday test with links and a mezzazine setup.

Again you are getting into a lot. And real numbers from the ride g's and tuning/testing would be needed to get realistic numbers....but hey its all for fun. You will end up learning a LOT while undertaking this project. I went through every steering swinger setup i could think of when designing some frontends (yes theres more than just vertical and horizontal) and I couldnt believe the way some would affect steering and how certain angles could change this or that. Also found out centerlink location from the centerline could be used to tune ackerman so steering tab angle and location on the spindles became irrelevant. Even though a car dynamics book stated that ackerman was dependent on the steering tab angle....total bs when you ditch the rack!!
hmmm a 56" spread w/ 12" shackle and 61.5" spring? i'm very impressed that worked so well, i really wish i could get people who have driven a truck like that to drive one that is well setup with a much shorter spread that is appropriate for the 12" shackle (59.5"). I would be interested to see if they think it is better. As we talked about before attempting to judge the quality of the ride through people's opinions is very difficult. But if they liked the 56-55" spread on the 12" shackle who am i to say it otherwise. Now just gotta get more information on other trucks.

Yeah way easier to think of the mass locations completely separate from the supports, find the CG and use that alone to determine the weight distribution on the wheels. But of course finding the rotational inertia of the system is a whole other problem but a VERY useful number.

and as for steering design there are SO many possibilities and compromises made i no longer really worry about it too much. Just get some thing that works at your 4 extremes, and let it figure itself out every where else. the hours and hours of work and testing are not worth the 2% increase in performance.

Oh any one want to see a normal leaf spring setup



it looks so tiny!!!
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:00 PM   #64
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ok its picture time. lol

heres the very first rear setup the SY2 back in 2001. ranger deavers. lol





second setup i went spring under. i got the 58" national stacks off the old fabtech 7s truck. center pin was dead center in the packs because the truck they came off of was 4 linked....had a shackle at each end of the packs....so with a fixed pivot up front they plunged like a mofo but worked pretty good...way better than the first setup. lol




and then some pics of the 62's goin on.






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Old 05-07-2012, 10:17 PM   #65
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Since allpro stopped selling them, anyone know where I can find 50t leafs? I thought I heard something about engage selling them??
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:14 PM   #66
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It is time to nut up or shut up!

It was nice knowing you normal truck:


Thank you Alpha_net:


Thank you J_Prich:


Those old ones NEEDED to go:


And who can forget my local laser cutter:


chop chop:


yay laser cutters:
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:33 PM   #67
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Now for the testing. I think i am going to install two shackle mounts. One at 49.5" and one at 52.5" So if im wrong about the 49.5" mount im not going to have to go back in and start cutting again or if i ever want to carry a useful amount of weight. I could always put a 9" shackle on the 52.5" mount as well and itll be the same as Alpha_net's setup.

But here is the mock up with:
49.5"


52.5"


Also i would like some advice/hard numbers on the front mount placement, right now i am thinking here:




It is about 2" in front of that square hole that is partially hidden by the slider mounts. Any chance one of you guys who has a really well centered axle could take a measurement from that hole or the old bed mount to see if i'm close? Right now i have that plum bob centered on the old axle bump plate and the leaf pin is placed approx 1.25" forward of that at droop. assuming itll move back about 2" during up travel, i wanted to about split the difference.
thoughts on that?


Frenched into the frame with 3/8 plates on either side to make up for the lack of material on the bottom of the frame:


i'm feeling it should end up stronger with so much extra metal in there. I do kinda want to go higher/deeper with french but i start reducing the amount of metal near the back of the cut a little too much i think, if some one with experience doing it could post up some pictures of theirs and what they think i would love to hear back. I am just winging it.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:01 PM   #68
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49.5" will not work........

as for the front hanger location.......tear down the packs to just the main...put them under the frame rails...bolt the axle to it....jack up the housing till its bumped out in the exact location as stock....check for squareness and adjust as necessary...once square, mark location of hole center vertically on frame...then come out laterally with your side mounted hangers if thats what you are going to do.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:37 PM   #69
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Wont work because? too soft? clearances? I'm pretty easy to convince give it a shot

Good call on lining up the axle first then going from there, i will definitely do that. And the leafs are just clamped to the side of the frame for positioning right now, they are going to go under/in the frame when it is all said and done.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:46 PM   #70
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[quote=felixre7;2304307]Wont work because? too soft? clearances? I'm pretty easy to convince give it a shot QUOTE]

ride height will be low.....alot of up travel will be lost....alot of droop travel will be lost....load carying capability will be lessened....at bump the main leafs will not be able to completely flatten out to its max length which will "W" the leafs real quick....
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:48 PM   #71
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Helton is right about the setup not working. sorry I have been dead to ttora for a while! but, i have since actual really driven my truck to see how it handles. felixre7 your right on with the math and my truck travels A LOT! im getting 19 inches, and I can confidently say that; HOWEVER, the ride height is very very low. my up travel is about 5 inches with the weight of my cage. with my motorcycle and some gear, "Forget about it!"

the shackle angle is too steep and by the time the weight of driving is applied, the shackle is pushing past the point of effectiveness and it is slamming my truck down.

(my shock valving isnt to my liking either, but that's another issue)

at this point I am thinking of running a shorter shackle and a longer spread. doing this with keeping the most correct math numbers to equal the length of the main leaf spring, will still give me close to the 19 inches of travel (im pretty sure). AND, because the shackle angle not as steep, it will hold weight better.

I have come to see that from my personal experience and the input of Helton, felixre7, and many others that there is a sweet spot (range of degree in reference to the datum line) that the shackle is best at. doing what Helton is suggesting will in fact limit travel. doing what felixre7 is suggesting will maximize travel. but, it is somewhere in the middle to get a good ride.

felixre7, how about taking the math to the next level?? these leaves are built to be progressive--what about talking to the manufacturer and getting some more defined numbers and running it through a fancy equation? (the easy part) then, the effects of the shackle need to be better mapped out.

or, just guess and check (what im gonna do) because of my three setups so far, i think I see at least the direction I need to go for this. I will try my best to not compromise the math that Felixre7 has laid out as it is very clear and simple to understand how the geometry works. but, if i have to sacrifice some travel numbers, i will gladly do so for better handling.

cycling the single main leaf is mandatory and will show you sooo much. I would make a few sets of mockup shackles that range in length. since you have a 12, make a 10 and 8 maybe to start. cycle the mono leaf with the axle attached. make note of your travel numbers with all shackles, then adjust the shackle mounting (i just clamped it onto the frame for easy moving). it seems to me that a shorter shackle is the way to go. i am thinking of going with 7 of 8 inch shackles with my spread pushed forward so that my total between the two still equals 61.5" or as close to it as possible.

felixre7, i would say not to french in the front spring mount. for handling purposes, it is best that the front leaf mount be as low as possible (old race car tech that we looked at months ago. you have the link somewhere).

I hope to finish my new rear setup (version 5.0 i think) by mid july, and run more off road tests. i will get pictures too. sorry this was such a long post. somebody post a sexy truck or something.

-Sean
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:13 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by alpha_nett View Post
Helton is right about the setup not working. sorry I have been dead to ttora for a while! but, i have since actual really driven my truck to see how it handles. felixre7 your right on with the math and my truck travels A LOT! im getting 19 inches, and I can confidently say that; HOWEVER, the ride height is very very low. my up travel is about 5 inches with the weight of my cage. with my motorcycle and some gear, "Forget about it!"

the shackle angle is too steep and by the time the weight of driving is applied, the shackle is pushing past the point of effectiveness and it is slamming my truck down.

(my shock valving isnt to my liking either, but that's another issue)

at this point I am thinking of running a shorter shackle and a longer spread. doing this with keeping the most correct math numbers to equal the length of the main leaf spring, will still give me close to the 19 inches of travel (im pretty sure). AND, because the shackle angle not as steep, it will hold weight better.

I have come to see that from my personal experience and the input of Helton, felixre7, and many others that there is a sweet spot (range of degree in reference to the datum line) that the shackle is best at. doing what Helton is suggesting will in fact limit travel. doing what felixre7 is suggesting will maximize travel. but, it is somewhere in the middle to get a good ride.

felixre7, how about taking the math to the next level?? these leaves are built to be progressive--what about talking to the manufacturer and getting some more defined numbers and running it through a fancy equation? (the easy part) then, the effects of the shackle need to be better mapped out.

or, just guess and check (what im gonna do) because of my three setups so far, i think I see at least the direction I need to go for this. I will try my best to not compromise the math that Felixre7 has laid out as it is very clear and simple to understand how the geometry works. but, if i have to sacrifice some travel numbers, i will gladly do so for better handling.

cycling the single main leaf is mandatory and will show you sooo much. I would make a few sets of mockup shackles that range in length. since you have a 12, make a 10 and 8 maybe to start. cycle the mono leaf with the axle attached. make note of your travel numbers with all shackles, then adjust the shackle mounting (i just clamped it onto the frame for easy moving). it seems to me that a shorter shackle is the way to go. i am thinking of going with 7 of 8 inch shackles with my spread pushed forward so that my total between the two still equals 61.5" or as close to it as possible.

felixre7, i would say not to french in the front spring mount. for handling purposes, it is best that the front leaf mount be as low as possible (old race car tech that we looked at months ago. you have the link somewhere).

I hope to finish my new rear setup (version 5.0 i think) by mid july, and run more off road tests. i will get pictures too. sorry this was such a long post. somebody post a sexy truck or something.

-Sean

HA LOVE IT!!! so we were totally wrong, kinda. The shackle length and separation distance controls the spring rate and travel. The softer you make the setup the more travel you get, the stiffer the less travel you get. I would have to say the 52.5" number must have come from F67s on a Tacoma with very little weight in the back (just bed/cage and a spare or two).

We can also say that the SOFTEST you can make a setup is where the shackle length plus separation is equal to the leaf length. Increasing the shackle length or separation will stiffen the suspension while decreasing either will soften it. So for people who say their truck is too stiff simply drop a shorter shackle in there and people whose truck is too soft drop a longer shackle in there.

How does the truck ride without being loaded down with all the weight in the back?
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by felixre7 View Post
HA LOVE IT!!! so we were totally wrong, kinda. The shackle length and separation distance controls the spring rate and travel. The softer you make the setup the more travel you get, the stiffer the less travel you get. I would have to say the 52.5" number must have come from F67s on a Tacoma with very little weight in the back (just bed/cage and a spare or two).

We can also say that the SOFTEST you can make a setup is where the shackle length plus separation is equal to the leaf length. Increasing the shackle length or separation will stiffen the suspension while decreasing either will soften it. So for people who say their truck is too stiff simply drop a shorter shackle in there and people whose truck is too soft drop a longer shackle in there.

How does the truck ride without being loaded down with all the weight in the back?
with no weight it is riding pretty nice. i have a bed cage that is a bit on the heavy side for someone who would be racing, and with that, the springs seem to be working great (hmmp, race springs working good under conditions similar to racing and not all loaded down...that should have been obvious

what you're saying with the shackle's length creating a softer/harder ride is exactly what im seeing. but, if the shackle length changes are matched with the changing of the frame mount spread then travel should still be maximized (i think). you'll have to prove that

let us go over what we know:

leaf spring---------------------------------A
frame mount distance (spread) -----------B
shackle length-----------------------------C


If A=B+C then up travel will be maximized. This is because B and C will be able to flatten out to equal the length of A creating two parallel lines with no space in-between them (aka: Full Jounce or Full up travel)

So, with the F67 and 50t leaf packs we have a 61.5" leaf spring, "A"
this puts our equation to 61.5=B+C

most seem to be running a shackle between 9 and 12 inches. so lets throw that in, "C"

61.5=B+9

I know middle school was long ago, but lets do some algebra!....I came up with, 52.5=B

so, 61.5(A) = 52.5(B) + 9(C) will result in a truck that maximizes travel. but this is the easy part

now weight, ride height, and shackle angle are the next problems to solve. all of these are inner-twined. ei, add more weight and your ride height and shackle angle change.

why does the angle of the shackle matter?? (remember this is not in reference to the ground or to the frame. the angle is taken from the "datum line" of the leaf spring. the datum line is the imaginary line from the front mounting eye of the leaf spring to the rear mounting of the shackle to the frame)
the reason the shackle's angle is important is because it does have an effect on the spring's rate. this changes through the movement of the shackle. at 90 degrees off the datum line, the shackle has zero effect on the spring's rate. the moment it moves back the shackle begins to increase the rate of the spring. this effect is some kind of bell curve parabola BS (I think. FYI, I have my degree in English, not math hehe)

because the shackle increases the rate of the spring, this is very useful to assist in these leaf springs in being more progressive. the downside, if the shackle is taken too far, it starts down the other side of the bell curve. this actually makes the leaf become less stiff. (very bad. causes truck to bottom out hard. I know, because this is the life story of my truck)

so, the angle of a shackle with 61.5=52.5+9

red line = datum line
blue line = shackle angle
the way this is sitting with no weight in the truck has been show to be effective. adding a longer shackle without accommodating the rest of the equation will stiffen up the ride, add a little height, and limit the travel.

from what I have figured (not tested) is if i decrease my shackle length to maybe 7 inches and increase my spread "B" my shackle will ride closer to 90 degrees off the datum line. this should initially make my ride softer through the first part of my travel and stiffer through the last part.

so the new equation im going to run on my setup will be

61.5(A) = 54.5(B) + 7(C)

I will not remove my current mount and i may make one more in addition. at this point, i wish the rear of my frame was bolt on! I would just make many options until I pinned it down.

Felixre7, where are you with your truck as of today?? are the pictures the most recent??
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:10 AM   #74
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So when you have nothing in the back of the truck it doesn't bottom out hard? or it still gets WAY soft on the way to bottom?

So yeah that equation max's out the springs travel for a given shackle length BUT it will also cause the shackle angles to get extreme (going parallel with the datum) Because of this i think all separations made with that calculation are going to result in a VERY soft setup as the spring will always end up parallel with the shackle.

The angle of the shackle has to do with the "Transmission angle" so it really isn't a spring rate thing just pertains to how "efficient" the geometry is in getting the force back into the frame/truck

Yes the longer shackle will reduce the travel slightly AND stiffen the ride up but you were talking how we need to get it a little stiffer right? since it bottoms out too easily now?

Most recent pictures as of last night:
Screw you guys i did it any way! i want the truck as low as possible and like how it looks . oh and have some reasons for wanting the roll center higher .

see, i didn't take out THAT much of the frame. and the mount is probably a solid 2-3" higher than if it was on the bottom of the frame



this took way too long. You should know that Helton won out on this argument and i put the shackle mounts at 52", just a little shorter to soften it up a smidge.


Almost rolls, i forgot to buy Ubolts otherwise it would have last night
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:45 PM   #75
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Felixre7, honestly, i am really happy you frenched in the front mount. I haven't seen a taco done like that, so it is something new. before you weld, and after you get your ubolts, cycle it and cycle it again. i think with the lower height, your truck is gonna handle nice!!

im pretty sure (and im going off my experience) that your axle will hit your frame and limit up travel. when i did mine, (without frenching front mount) i did it so i would barely limit travel with the frame. If you are unhappy with the up travel you get with your setup, I think it would not be a good idea to lower your rear mount as that would compromise handling. you should C-notch the frame at that point. which would be dually awesome! A trophy truck low tacoma that has all the travel of the f67s!

with my springs and no weight, they are really stiff on the street going slow to medium. on the highway it rides really nice. over bumps/whoops it is definitely bottoming out hard. this is because of the very limited up travel i have with my geometry.




In these picture there is about 7 inches of available up travel; however, this is not normal. on flat ground and every other time i have measured it is like 5 inches. (maybe I was using my cock tape measure which of course adds a few!)
anyway, my truck is actually not sitting bad at this point, but the travel is too fast. before i get into shock valving, I know I can make it better for my applications.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:10 AM   #76
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I'm starting to think any issues you might be having with performance could be entirely in the shocks. Hell your current setup might even work fine if you tried re-valving? Well short of having way too little up travel at least. A great set of books to look into covering this is the "... To Win" series by Carroll Smith http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/. Specifically the Tune to Win book. In it he makes a point that the only job of a spring is to keep the car(truck) off the ground so all you should be concerned about is its ability to do that and keep doing it (not get crazy soft/hard) and any other handling/performance comes from the dampers. So you might not want to get too wrapped up into trying tons of different things with the spring geometry before you maybe try out screwing with the shocks first. I promise they are really easy to take apart and put back together. Just grab a shim set and start fucking around!


MMMM that is a really good idea about notching the frame to clear the axle, i will probably go ahead and do that if the axle ends up hitting the frame, remember i do have longer shackles so it might not be an issue. I know at least that SolidWorks says i wont have an issue .
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:51 PM   #77
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mine bumps at the frame now and it drags my rear bumper over certain things. I've bent over my license plate once. just be careful you have enough clearance back there if you bump lower.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:56 PM   #78
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Sounds good, ill make sure to check it a few times before i weld every thing in. Also any suggestions on the best bedsides?
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #79
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glassworks has the best quality glass in my opinion
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:57 AM   #80
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oh, I haven't really voiced this, but FiberWerx bedsides are total junk! Man, I am really disappointed with the quality of the bedsides I bought. They told me that my bedsides would be coming out of a new mold (probably true). but the two sides are completely different, like it was made from two different companies. I had to mount them very differently, the tail light mounts on the passenger side were cut off completely so i had to glass in my own. (i was rushed for time so i didnt even call them). the shape of the mold is crap. my lame ass made way better molds that produce better products then these.
sure, they are supposed to be race products, not show quality. but in my little ass garage I did better. I want to support all this with pictures. I will, but not tonight.
If you trust me, just dont buy from fiberwerx.
Oh, and when I went there, the dudes were total dicks. I walked up to two guys, said hello, and they blew me off not saying anything. then i interrupted them to say I was there to pick up some bedsides, and i got a response of "I dont know were they are" to which i had to ask were i could find someone who did. they pointed me to the office, which is in the back from the parking lot.
they are on my truck, and im not upset or anything anymore. I just dont want anyone else to have to deal with that BS.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #81
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Sounds look looks like ill be going glassworks again (that is what the fronts are)

also truck is rolling around on some tacked mounts, im excited with how low the truck is and i think i have about 12-13" from the top of the axle to the bottom of the frame. pictures tonight
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:39 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixre7 View Post
i have about 12-13" from the top of the axle to the bottom of the frame.
thats awesome. Im not touching my truck again until youre finished. this r&d will be too helpful

looking forward to pictures.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #83
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cute:


Truck is on the ground now and the sway bar is getting installed tonight.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:04 PM   #84
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Progress!

On the ground finally....


Forgot there was a fuckin gusset in here. PIA:


Yesterday the welder ran out of gas with 12" of weld to go. Today it decided it wasn't going to have enough wire to finish this:


So here i figured most people put cross members back here i might as well make mine something useful:
For the record this is the Currie Anti-Rock bar with 12" steel arms. It is the 45" version, it fits very well. Remember I am running 1.5" wheel spacers in the rear.


And I some how totally forgot to take a picture of it out of the garage. Well maybe next time ill do that.

So far it looks like i have 10.5" of clearance from the frame to the top of the axle, can any one else with a ~52" separation measure theirs and so we can see how it stacks up?

Next will be the cage and the shocks then we can go do some testing.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:57 AM   #85
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At the risk of this becoming a build thread....
MOAR PICTURES:
Frame height right in front of the spring perch:


height at lower Aarm (This is going to go down):


How she sits now, doesn't get that much lower with weight on it:


Now could i get some advice on this cage? What do you guys think? Any thing i should change, remove, add? I should also add it is in no small way inspired by J Prich and Alpha_Nett's cages.


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Old 07-15-2012, 12:03 PM   #86
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Oh and I at one time had some wacky plan for not welding the cage to the truck which is why i was keeping those bed mounts on there but the more i look the more i realize it looks terrible because of those things. I think they are going to have to come off sometime this week.
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:53 PM   #87
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My truck had 10" up and 10" down at ride height.....as for that rear cage you drew up....my Personal opinion is that I don't like it at all for many reasons.....and weld the tubes to the frame....do not bolt anything and especially don't bolt the shit to the stock bed tabs.

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Old 07-15-2012, 07:54 PM   #88
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Oh and the truck looks good btw.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:26 AM   #89
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Quote:
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My truck had 10" up and 10" down at ride height.....as for that rear cage you drew up....my Personal opinion is that I don't like it at all for many reasons.....and weld the tubes to the frame....do not bolt anything and especially don't bolt the shit to the stock bed tabs.
Yup, that is what i ended up deciding. Going to cut em off this week.

So design requirements for the bed cage, maximize bed space while being as short as possible.

So there are two things i don't like about the cage actually, the first is how i can't put cross members in above the frame and the second is that crappy X in the hoop that has to be like that so the shock mount tubes have someplace to go.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:10 AM   #90
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Make sure to put a support tube down to the frame rail at the bumpstop at the bare minimum to add some strength for hard hits.
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