alright guys. got some questions from the newbie.

[pbkid]

alright, first off... just as a little background, i come from an isuzu group that likes small modifications but generally doesnt do anything crazy because the maintence on our car was very expensive if you broke something (isuzu Vehicross).
so, when i traded my VX for a 4runner i naturally had dreams of bigger mods than what was possible with the VX.
also- i enjoy wheeling my vehicle, but its also a daily driver, so please keep that in mind with your suggestions.

so, this is what i've been pondering for some time now. -

1. when regearing how much should i plan to spend?
2. when regearing, is it pretty much essential to do lockers at that point? do you take apart the axles to do gears??
3. how much should i plan to spend on a front locker to match my rear e-locker?
a couple more-
3. i plan on doing a 3" suspension lift, but is it possible to add 3" spring lift and 1" spacer on top of the springs with a diff drop bracket? to save the CV's basically.

so, if you cant tell, im trying to figure out how to get 33-34" tires on the runner without doing an SAS....and im not fond of body lifts.

thanks for any help!
jack

[Lysmachia]

FYI gang, Jack and I talked about this via PM but I told him he should put it to the crowd as all of you might have better suggestions than I did.

[ike]

regear will run you around 1200-1400 depending on gears, and install. the fat kid can do them local or ECGS can ship you entire thirds.

The only selectable locker currently avalible for the front is the arb. locker runs about 750 compresssor is about 250.

You want to add the locker when you regear or you will be paying the labor cost of regearing again to add it.

You do not want to stack lifts on the front of these trucks. it is asking for trouble. about 3" is the max, without doing a drop bracket lift wich they are usually 6". a body lift on top of suspension to clear tires is another option.

Diff drops do little to help cv angles, and rotate the diff causing less oil to get to the pinion. most people do not reccomend them.


With a 3" suspension lift, and aligmnment that pushes the front tires forward and the pinch weld mod you will be able to fit 33x10.5's or a similar skinny tire on your runner without issue.

[00regcab]

Ike pretty much hit it all on the head.

Personally I'd suggest wheeling it with just the rear locker and gears for awhile. Front lockers play hell in some situations, and you'll be going through a few CV's at that point as well. If you already have a TRD rear (elocker) i'd just stick it out with that, and re-gear it. If you're not locked in the rear I'd pickup a TRD rear, sell off your axle, and re-gear the TRD axle.

I only say this based on personal experience, I went from wheeling an open/open truck, to a locked/geared F/R pretty much overnight and it was a lot of truck to get used to.

The e-locker 3rd is a little more weak than the 8.4 but it's never really been an issue to those of us who aren't throttle jockeys on 40's with a blower lol. (it takes quite a bit to break them)

As far as tires, I ran a 255/85/16 (taller than a 33, but shorter than a 35) with about 1" of lift up front, and 3" of lift in the rear. I had to trim the lower bed corners on the front of the rear wheel well just a touch. I also had to hammer the pinch weld completely flat, and hammer out up the fire wall a little to get them to clear. However, i loved that setup. It was low, simple, and functional. From the outside you could not tell anything was cut anywhere. Everything looked great.

3" of lift will be more than enough to do what you're describing doing. 90% of us here run 3" of lift, or less, and have never really had any issues with it at all.

[pbkid]

alrighty... sounds logical.

i figured that while the gearing was being done it was a good time to do the front locker. i just am trying to figure out if i need to do it in steps or all at once.

sounds like 3" lift and 33's will do for now. then save for the front locker and regear.... (shit, at that point i might as well do an SAS haha)
thanks for the input.
so, you guys dont suggest doing the diff drop, even with just a 3" lift to help save CV's? (its really common to do diff drops with isuzu because the CV's are expensive)

while, im prodding.. how do you guys feel about a toytec 3"?? good choice?

[ike]

The biggest thing with lift and cvs is that with the add system you are always spinning them. when you are lifted the boot fins can touch and it wears through the boots quickly. a manual hub conversion fixes this for the most part though.

[00regcab]

I've got no experience with the toytec setup. I'm on OME 882's, and OME Dakars and they do the job. Not the best, but still very functional.

The best thing you can do for your front is get rid of that sway bar if you haven't already.

[Lysmachia]

ToyTec is well regarded in these parts. Call and ask to talk to Darrick. Tell him I sent you and he will give you a discount. or email him at darrick@toyteclifts.com

They do great lift kits for 4 runners! You have a 96 runner right? SO you have the optional locked 3rd?

[RedRunnertc]

Vermejo runs 35's on a 3rd gen. Not sure what his lift setup is though.

Note that Nate must have been assuming you have a truck. You would need to find an elocked 4Runner, with the lnk rear axle, to do an axle swap on your rig.

[pbkid]

Originally Posted by ike

The biggest thing with lift and cvs is that with the add system you are always spinning them. when you are lifted the boot fins can touch and it wears through the boots quickly. a manual hub conversion fixes this for the most part though.

- sorry, but whats an add system??
- you mean the innerds of the boot touch the boot itself??
- manual hubs fix broken CV's?? i know it can stop me from grenading the axle, but the boot?

Originally Posted by 00regcab

I've got no experience with the toytec setup. I'm on OME 882's, and OME Dakars and they do the job. Not the best, but still very functional.

The best thing you can do for your front is get rid of that sway bar if you haven't already.

the toytec uses OME i believe...
i havent gotten rid of my swaybar yet.. but i will before i make the trip to moab.

is it absolutely NECESSARY to replace the shocks at the same time as the springs? or is it just make them last longer and have more travel??? basically, can i get by until i can afford the longer stiffer ones?

Originally Posted by Lysmachia

ToyTec is well regarded in these parts. Call and ask to talk to Darrick. Tell him I sent you and he will give you a discount. or email him at darrick@toyteclifts.com

They do great lift kits for 4 runners! You have a 96 runner right? SO you have the optional locked 3rd?

nice, thanks molly.

mine is a 98 SR5... but yes it has the rear e-locker

Originally Posted by RedRunnertc

Vermejo runs 35's on a 3rd gen. Not sure what his lift setup is though.

Note that Nate must have been assuming you have a truck. You would need to find an elocked 4Runner, with the lnk rear axle, to do an axle swap on your rig.

sorry bout the multiple posts guys, but i cant seem to figure out how to copy all 3 messages into one box.. you can edit it if you like troy

troy- 35's without an SAS??
i do have the e-locker in mine. but whats a link rear axle??

[Lysmachia]

Jack see the "+ Quote" button at the bottom. click that on each post you want to reply too and then on the last one hit the quote button and all the quotes you want to answer on one screen will be together. Also I can mod that for you as well

ADD means you do NOT have manual WARN or Aisin(Toyota)hubs. It means you cannot disconnect the power from the Diff and CV and the hub. A Warn or Aisin manual hub lets you disconnect that power from the CV to the wheel putting less wear and tear on the CV.

Ask ToyTec (Darrick) about the shock issue, too. Are you trying to go to Moab for Zu Zoo?

Originally Posted by pbkid

troy- 35's without an SAS??
i do have the e-locker in mine. but whats a link rear axle??

Sure, lots of folks run 35" tires with IFS. But they also know how OR learn real quick how to wheel gently so as not to break CV's. Unlike Isuzu, Toyota OEM CV's can be found pretty easily at junkyards and often they are sold also at Napa or AutoZone. You Def need to have a Spare CV if you plan on wheeling. So make sure to budget in a spare. (Maybe $100)

The link Troy is talking about is the rear link going from your frame in front of the rear axle to your axle right near the bottom of your coil spring.

Here is a pick of the stock links attached to the rear axle. We got rid of our stock links because as you can see the one on top of the picture is all mangled where it had attached to the frame on the driver side.



Here is a pic of Troy's custom Rear Link Axle. As you can see it has the large rear coils I am talking about.


If your axle is sitting on those large coils, it is then considered a linked axle because you have these links. If you do not have those giant coils, then you would be running leaf springs. Like this:



And I thought you'd get a kick out of this

[mrdoug]

I'm seriously not trying to be a dick, I know the search feature here on the ttora boards sucks ass, try using this search engine -> http://www.nwtoys.com/search/google for these types of questions...

It's a custom google search engine filter that hits particular sites (ttora/cottora included). THANKS to nwttora for putting that together!

I promise you there's days and days of reading on these exact discussions. That being said, we'll do our best to point you in the right direction.

Note that the spirit of this post is NOT in line with the typical "search noob" tone. I seriously am trying to be helpful

[AxleIke]

1200+ for regears now!?!?!

Damn.

When I did it it was under 1000 if you brought the diffs in.

Time to buy myself a press.

[Gerdo]

If you are thinking gears and a front locker then yes do them at the same time. The labor will be the same, except installing the compressor.

The ToyTec Ultimate lift is very good. The front coilovers use Bilstein shocks and Eibach coils.

I have Tundra TRD coils in the front of my 4runner. They are stiff and don't flex that good. The ToyTec COs flex a lot better. I wish that I had gone with the ToyTec COs. You can also get different coils to carry a heavy bumper.

As far as diff drops. Some don't like them, some believe that they don't do anything. I run one and I'm keeping mine.

The front diff is mounted by 3 points. The drop only lowers the front two, the back can't because of the frame below it. Since it rotates the diff, the CL of the CVs is only lowered about 5/8". I believe that it helps.

When I fill the diff with oil I park on a slight hill to get enough oil in.

[Lysmachia]

Originally Posted by AxleIke

1200+ for regears now!?!?!

Damn.

When I did it it was under 1000 if you brought the diffs in.

Time to buy myself a press.

The value of the Dollar has fallen a lot since then to.... It's actually probably about right considering inflation and all.

[RedRunnertc]

Originally Posted by pbkid

troy- 35's without an SAS??

Yeah, 35's (usually in the form of 315-75-16's) are good on the Tacoma/3rd gen 4Runners. As always, the bigger the tires, the more careful you have to be with the throttle to avoid damage.

[pbkid]

Originally Posted by Lysmachia

ADD means you do NOT have manual WARN or Aisin(Toyota)hubs. It means you cannot disconnect the power from the Diff and CV and the hub. A Warn or Aisin manual hub lets you disconnect that power from the CV to the wheel putting less wear and tear on the CV.

Ask ToyTec (Darrick) about the shock issue, too. Are you trying to go to Moab for Zu Zoo?


Sure, lots of folks run 35" tires with IFS. But they also know how OR learn real quick how to wheel gently so as not to break CV's. Unlike Isuzu, Toyota OEM CV's can be found pretty easily at junkyards and often they are sold also at Napa or AutoZone. You Def need to have a Spare CV if you plan on wheeling. So make sure to budget in a spare. (Maybe $100)

The link Troy is talking about is the rear link going from your frame in front of the rear axle to your axle right near the bottom of your coil spring.

-ok, so add is automatic disconnecting diff maybe?? basically manual or auto hubs. got ya.

-yup, my plan is 2 weeks in moab right after i graduate in may... one week with the zu guys and one with my friends from home...

-well im actually pretty good at being gentle on a trail. i would say that im a 4 out of 10 on the skinny pedal when offroad. and if i do end up with bigger tires before moab i will definately be bringing an extra axle... maybe 2...

Originally Posted by mrdoug

I'm seriously not trying to be a dick, I know the search feature here on the ttora boards sucks ass, try using this search engine -> http://www.nwtoys.com/search/google for these types of questions...

no no, thats not a dick move at all. in fact, im usually in your position when people ask questions on the vehicross forums. im pretty quick to suggest a previous thread that already discussed it.
but-
1. while we are being honest, reading through days of info is not any fun. and i definately am not going to make any friends just reading all the time.
2. ill look over that stuff though for more insight. i just know how much threadjacking can occur on a forum and how frustrating it can be to apply previous threads to my own situation. so i was looking for the basics here first, then research what i can afford and am serious about.

Originally Posted by Gerdo

If you are thinking gears and a front locker then yes do them at the same time. The labor will be the same, except installing the compressor.

The ToyTec Ultimate lift is very good. The front coilovers use Bilstein shocks and Eibach coils.

I have Tundra TRD coils in the front of my 4runner. They are stiff and don't flex that good. The ToyTec COs flex a lot better. I wish that I had gone with the ToyTec COs. You can also get different coils to carry a heavy bumper.

As far as diff drops. Some don't like them, some believe that they don't do anything. I run one and I'm keeping mine.

The front diff is mounted by 3 points. The drop only lowers the front two, the back can't because of the frame below it. Since it rotates the diff, the CL of the CVs is only lowered about 5/8". I believe that it helps.

When I fill the diff with oil I park on a slight hill to get enough oil in.

nice, good info... the way i see it. every little bit helps... even if its 5/8".. i figure as long as it doesnt cause harm i have no problem with it.

Originally Posted by RedRunnertc

Yeah, 35's (usually in the form of 315-75-16's) are good on the Tacoma/3rd gen 4Runners. As always, the bigger the tires, the more careful you have to be with the throttle to avoid damage.

sure sure... thats good to know thats its possible because i would like to have the extra frame and axle clearance. but im not sure if i can afford 35's... much less the gearing needed to still drive it on the street with em on.
eventually, yes. once i get regeared and front locked i would like to have 35's also. but i was kinda wondering if it could be done without an SAS. thanks troy.

ps- i tried the quote+ thing at work because the layout of this forum is very similar to the VX one... but it didnt work there so i thought i did it wrong.

[Lysmachia]

Remember if you want to go to 35's with a 3rd gen runner which is heavy you might also have to upgrade your stearing components as well. Just be aware that it is not just gearing that is affected by going to such a large tire.

[AxleIke]

35's on third gens require upper a arm modifications unless you get enough backspacing, which results in fender cutting.

[Quick Draw]

I don't believe there are upgrades that can be easily done to a 3rd gen Runner/Tacoma rack without finding a complete replacement rack and tie rods that are actually somewhat strong. So if you have 35s say goodbye to your tie rods first (pretty quickly) then your steering rack and eventually your steering pump. And this isn't just web wheeling like the rest of these guys who haven't had personal experience with it. I wheeled 35s for a year. Wouldn't do it again. I never popped a CV, so I clearly wasn't beating the shit out of it.

On a similar topic...funny how a certain somebody said he would never do 35s on a Tacoma, because he could do everything with 33s, and that was just a stupid "big truck guy" thing....and then after he did it, suddenly its cool, everybody else thinks its a good idea. Good luck with that. Your truck was breaking non-stop to the point that you almost wanted to quit wheeling....but now you're getting even bigger tires, based on one guy saying he "quit braking with bigger tires". Yeah...right.

[00regcab]

Originally Posted by Quick Draw

On a similar topic...funny how a certain somebody said he would never do 35s on a Tacoma, because he could do everything with 33s, and that was just a stupid "big truck guy" thing....and then after he did it, suddenly its cool, everybody else thinks its a good idea. Good luck with that. Your truck was breaking non-stop to the point that you almost wanted to quit wheeling....but now you're getting even bigger tires, based on one guy saying he "quit braking with bigger tires". Yeah...right.

If i wanted more of your fucking lip, I would of jiggled my zipper


Your bullshit here is in no way related to this topic.

I only did 35's because i got them for almost $500 cheaper than it would of cost me to replace my 255/85's (which would of been most ideal).


PBkid,

The kit will likely come with shocks. While they're not the best out there, they do the job well and they function. I ran the OME shocks on my truck (still am in the front) and wheeled the hell out of it; it did just fine. The only thing I didnt like about them is the dampening wasnt there and with any sort of weight over the rear it would just turn to mush and wasn't stable at all.

They'll also limit some of your droop travel (about 2" worth, at least on a Tacoma) however, again, not a really big issue. It's something that could definitely be upgraded in the future. However, i wouldn't suggest stock shocks with a lift at all. They'll be way too short.

Manual hub trucks are more prone to breaking at the outer stub shaft due to it being a smaller overall diameter, however it will save your boots because the CV's wont be turning on the highway and rubbing on each other all of the time. They'll only be rubbing when the truck is in 4wd, offroad or in the snow. Where as an ADD truck they will rub all of the time no matter what. When you break a CV there is about a 98% chance that it will not effect the boot at all.

Also, it's not overly common to break them in the stub shaft. Despite was asshat above says, I wheeled my truck HARD and beat on it for a year (wheeling Carnage 2/3 times a week, moab twice, holy cross back to back, tons of other trails) and NEVER broke a CV. My front diff is in less than OK shape, and the result is quite a few broken axles. Open front trucks usually break them in the joint. Most of the time even locked front trucks break them in the joint, there is just something weird going on with my truck that I have not been capable of diagnosing just yet.

You can definitely get away with running 35's on IFS, there's the common belief that you must solid axle to wheel the hard trails, and the big lines. That's not the case. IFS definitely isn't the best or most ideal setup for hard trails, and rock crawling; however it does the job. If you're going to regear, it doesn't matter what ratio you choose. It's all the same cost to do it, a 5.29 ratio might be $10-$15 more than a 4.88 but it's nothing substantial.

I'm not too sure on the year of your runner which may determine this. A lot of people will suggest 4.88's to you for 33's. Personally I'd suggest 5.29's (especially with a 3.slow) since we're all already at a loss of power/torque due to altitude. In reality, a stock truck geared to 4.56 up here is about the same 'umph' as the same stock truck at sea level with 4.10's. Also, 5.29's wouldn't be a bad idea because it would save you $$$$ in the long run when you solid axle, since solid axle will for sure bring larger tires you'll have 1 less diff to regear.

Lots of arguments are made against 5.29's with 33's as far as gas mileage goes, however I was avg. 18-19, and my best was 20. This was also not really driving "conservatively" (80mph, shifting at higher RPM, etc.).

[Gerdo]

My views on breaking CVs are... Sometimes too much skinny pedal.

Or what I believe is the case more times than not. A combination of too much droop and cranking the steering hard to the side. This will give you the most severe CV angles.

As far as front shocks. The stock length shocks, which is what I'm running, will give plenty of droop. Also you can't get much more droop without the UCA coming in contact with the coils. I don't believe that you can get longer front shocks.

[RedRunnertc]

Nate - he has a 3rd gen, so Tacoma (not preTaco) engines. 4 cyl 4Runners are pretty rare, so I would assume it's the 3.4 and therefore can get away with the one ratio higher (lower numerically) gear choices. Good point about altitude compensation though - you will get better mileage being lighter on the throttle than the higher RPM would require.

[00regcab]

Originally Posted by Gerdo

My views on breaking CVs are... Sometimes too much skinny pedal.

Or what I believe is the case more times than not. A combination of too much droop and cranking the steering hard to the side. This will give you the most severe CV angles.

As far as front shocks. The stock length shocks, which is what I'm running, will give plenty of droop. Also you can't get much more droop without the UCA coming in contact with the coils. I don't believe that you can get longer front shocks.

See, mine breaks under the complete opposite of what you just listed. On the rocks, I am not a skinny pedal wheeler. In the snow (where i use LOTS of it) i've only broken 1 CV and it was an obvious cause (lifted a tire up out of the snow, and when it came down HARD back on it, it was on a rock and caught full traction. Snap).

7 out of 9 have broken when suspension is at almost rest, 1 when steering was full lock, full droop, and 1 that i talked about above. I'm also not breaking joints, i agree 100% with you that is what usually causes a CV to break in the joint.

The stock front shock length is good, but the dampening isn't quite there. I should of been more clear in my previous post, i was referring to rear shocks. Not front. However, in the kit he is talking about purchasing it comes with new front shocks, rear shocks, etc.

Originally Posted by RedRunnertc

Nate - he has a 3rd gen, so Tacoma (not preTaco) engines. 4 cyl 4Runners are pretty rare, so I would assume it's the 3.4 and therefore can get away with the one ratio higher (lower numerically) gear choices. Good point about altitude compensation though - you will get better mileage being lighter on the throttle than the higher RPM would require.

Cool, i was pretty sure he had a 3.4, but wasnt 100% sure.

FWIW: I absolutely LOVE my 5.29's with the 3.4 when i was on 255/85/16's. And what troy says about throttle angle is true.

Essentially, it means with the extra gearing you'll (for example) only have to use 20% throttle to maintain 65, where with 4.88's you may have to use 30% throttle. Since fuel is injected based on how far open the throttle plate is, how much air is passing over the MAF, and what the o2 sensor reads in the exhaust it's much more important to run a lower throttle angle for better fuel mileage.

Obviously, a higher RPM will burn slightly more fuel, but in this case it offsets itself for the better by using a smaller throttle percentage.

[tacotoy]

Originally Posted by Quick Draw

I don't believe there are upgrades that can be easily done to a 3rd gen Runner/Tacoma rack without finding a complete replacement rack and tie rods that are actually somewhat strong. So if you have 35s say goodbye to your tie rods first (pretty quickly) then your steering rack and eventually your steering pump. And this isn't just web wheeling like the rest of these guys who haven't had personal experience with it. I wheeled 35s for a year. Wouldn't do it again. I never popped a CV, so I clearly wasn't beating the shit out of it.

spot on with the tie rods.... though with a manual transmission you can get an automatic radiator and use the tranny rail to cool the power steering, helps to save racks and pumps a bit if you really want to push tires that big. but there aren't really any changes you can make outside of that, people have tried and there isn't much you can do

[pbkid]

wow, a lot of info there in 1 day.

it sounds like its most logical for me to stay at 33's until i can afford to make this into just a trail toy... work on upgrading body armor and such in the meantime.

basically, i get that its possible, but not such a great idea for a daily driver because the risk level that it brings for breaking things. especially for a college student.

and those are definately some good points. that steering is going to be heavily affected due to the weight of 35's. and that with a throttle position sensor its all about the angle of the throttle on gas mileage.

thanks again guys. sounds like 33's, toytec lift, and trailgear sliders should get me through moab in one piece

[Lysmachia]

Yup, I didn't realize you were on a college budget, then I for SURE would have said stay at 33's... and worry about:

1) Armour FIRST
2) Gearing
3) Lift
4) Lockers
5) Tire size
6) SA options (With upgraded stearing)

And you guys call me a web wheeler. My junk is just broke and I shouldn't be driving... LMAO! You forgot all those years I wheeled an Isuzu.

[mrdoug]

Originally Posted by 00regcab

If i wanted more of your fucking lip, I would of jiggled my zipper

I side with QuickDraw on this, but that reply was just funny and had me actually lol'ing

[00regcab]

Originally Posted by mrdoug

I side with QuickDraw on this, but that reply was just funny and had me actually lol'ing

May be so, but given my circumstances it was cheaper for me to go 35's. I'm going to be breaking shit anyways (as it has shown). 1 guy i had talked to said he hasn't broken a cv ever since hes ran TSL's (which is what he said, is it true. Dunno. Never said that IS the case, just spreading the info i had found. Which the guy actually WHEELS his shit so i find his statement reputable.). Nor did I ever claim anything about my steering being ok, or not having a problem with it. Bottom line, I feel my trucks done right, it's not half assed. I don't try to weld cast pieces to my frame for recovery points, that will obviously just get ripped off. I dont put 3" of body lift on trying to clear bigger tires, and still have rub.... i could go on. But i'll quit cluttering this thread.

Really, I don't even want to argue about it anymore. I could give a fuck less (in the end, i have, and will continue to be out wheeling my shit more than he has), I'm just sick of him running his mouth whenever hes behind a computer but wont say shit when he sees me.

[tacotoy]

Originally Posted by Lysmachia

And you guys call me a web wheeler. My junk is just broke and I shouldn't be driving... LMAO! You forgot all those years I wheeled an Isuzu.

i only called you one cause you called me one first


i dunno how essential protection is as a first mod. most of my body damage came from carnage.... and that isn't an issue anymore. not that i dont think you need it but for most stuff sliders will cover the important stuff and then some lift and decent tires. ive been rocking 4.10's with 33's for a long time and gearing hasn't been an issue....