The importance of gas!

[spindleshanks]

I'm starting this post for two reasons:
1) to provide a resource for putting together your own CO2 setup.
2) to strongly encourage everybody to do so.

Let's all agree that airing down is necessary on the trail. No arguments. If not merely for traction purposes, then it's unquestionably necessary for purposes of comfort, because it makes for a smoother ride.
That said, it's definitely necessary to air back up before hitting the highway.

For two years I did this using two portable electric cheap-o compressors plugged into my cigarette lighters. I can attest to the difficulty and inneficiency of this process. Everybody made fun of me, but very few of them had anything better. After a long trail run, it's unpleasant and strenuous to leave your truck idling for another 20 minutes to power that crappy little compressor. It uses your costly gasoline and puts unnecessary wear on your engine.
There are better air compressors out there, like the little MVF50 that Jacket and Tacotoy have, and the Viair units. But air pumps wear out.
All other options considered, I believe that the most cost-effective, efficient, and practical method of airing up is the C02 tank.

I'm convinced that anybody who uses C02 will find it as irreplacable as I have. Testimony is welcome, guys and gals.

I assembled a practical, efficient, and functional C02 setup for about $150. You may be able to do one for cheaper. Many of you already have beverage service C02 tanks, scuba tanks, welding tanks, or other suitable devices. They don't need to be big. Check out Troy's little tank. It kicks ass. Check out this basic bottle...All it needs is a regulator (see below) and a hose/chuck ($10 at any parts store).
http://www.offroadairstore.com/servlet/Detail?no=19

You will need a regulator, and this, unfortunately, is very price inflexible and will cost you $50 (anybody have any other tricks up their sleeve? pitch it in!) Check out this one:
http://www.offroadairstore.com/servlet/Detail?no=11

You'll need a place to fill your tank, but don't let this intimidate you. It bothered me until I found a cheap, convenient reliable source. For $13.87, I fill my 10# tank at Jax Surplus Outdoor gear in Ft. Collins (paintball dept) in about 5 minutes. This lasts for about 40 tire fills.

The secret to a C02 setup is KISS...."Keep it simple stupid". Don't spend extra money for bracket kits to mount the thing if a bungee will work (like in my case). Don't buy the expensive handle. Likewise, you don't need an expensive guage set to make your C02 functional.

For what it's worth, I believe a C02 setup is as essential to wheeling as a good kitchen knife is to a chef. Sure, a chef could use a $1.99 crappy knife. But the guys on Iron Chef are using the good shit.
I think a functional C02 setup indicates that you're serious about your hobby. Being well equipped and self sufficient is awesome. You bring your own glove to play a baseball game.

Please post up any of the following that you may have to share:
a) sources to fill C02 bottles (Jax Outdoor, Ft. Collins 4X4, welding shops, etc.)
b) tips and tricks for mounting the tank
c) sources of hardware
d) sources of affordable used tanks
e) success stories

Thanks to all of you who bothered to read this rambling rant!

[jarboarder1]

That was a very nice rant.

I think you are completely right on this whole CO2 set up being the best way to go. Im looking to get one set up right now. Its great for filling up tires but can also come in handy for other things like if you need to run air tools for a short time period.

if anyone knows of good places to get a tank i would like to know

[ziggy428]

my
In an ideal world I think I would get one of those belt driven winch/compressors. CO2 tanks are pretty efficient for you buck though. I would suggest looking for used tanks from welding equipment auctions or if anyone has used medical O2 tanks. (little known fact: many welding O2 tanks in use now will have a window stamped on them. This was because there was a surplus from Nazi Germany after the war. The swastika was just restamped. This is a testament to how long these things last.) Try looking up government surplus or Richie bros on I-25. I've seen a couple CO2 bottle holders for jeeps. Not sure if its an actual product. Some guy had it on the back with his spare and high lift. (Easy pickings if you want someones tank if you ask me.) If one had the desire I might check out those bottle carts that have a big clamp on it and just use the frame. (some creativity here-doesn't matter as long as its secure, I don't know about a liquefied gas but high pressure bottles are extremely dangerous if not respected.) I've heard of some buddy's who play alot of paintball doing this: Instead of always going to a store they all pitched in and got one of those larger filling tanks from airgas (I dont think you actually buy the tank, its just filled like trade in propane.) to put in the garage to fill their guns with. They ended up saving money but again they were heavy users.

[Lysmachia]

Troy has a sweet set up? Um.... that is MY sweet set up. (It's my tank - we just swap it between rigs depending on which one we take.

A few notes:

1) Know how many fills you think you can get. For my tank I can do about 6 fills of my 35" tires from 12 PSI to 32 PSI. When you run out... it sucks.... as we did today on our way back from Hall Valley. I thought I had over 1 fill but I barely got my tires all full up and it quit. We drove slow to Bailey and troy filled his at the gas station. *NOTE* Gas stations with car washes generally have kick ass compressors that are free! Troy and I decided to compile a list of free/fast compressors that we know of and share it with you.

2) CO2 isn't free. Yeah it is 15 bucks to fill a 10# tank but many times we have gone on runs we have been the only ones with on-board air. When The trail end is 30 miles from civilization obviously we'll help others out, but I have drained my tank many times airing up everyone else. Some throw some $$ my way others don't. It is proper etiquette to throw $3 to the CO2 holder.... Not trying to be rude but It needs to be said! (The biggest pain isn't the money it is going to get the tank refilled - it takes time!)

Good post Jeremy. Troy and I will compile our free air gas station list one of these days and post it up too....

[tacotoy]

i still like my compressors..... ill always have them there and even if i do get a CO2 tank setup to make the airing up quicker im still a fan of having the backup of the compressors. but thats just me.

[Lysmachia]

No doubt about it Rich... It is nice that Troy has a compressor and I have CO2... best of both worlds... assuming we take both trucks

[devinsixtyseven]

Oh, I thought you were gonna talk about the importance of letting it out, and I was thinking "oh yeah, I'm really on the ball with this one!" Then I realized you meant CO2.

Formatt Fab on CO4x4 has inexpensive tanks, same with used brewery tanks, homebrew kits, beverage suppliers, etc...they're all the same tanks.

I really like the tank setup. Have a backup plan for when it runs out, but I'd rather use a high volume, high pressure source than a zero volume high pressure source and have to run a compressor non stop for a half hour to fill.

Carry a backup regulator. Ultimate Air sells fixed 150# regs (all you need) for 43$. Carry a spare chuck, they're easy to lose if you're always swapping tools. Have something to quick fix the hose if it gets cut or whatever.

Get a tank boot. This doesn't necessarily mean get a plastic boot that presses on, it could mean get some Herculiner, or have it Line-Xed with the bed, or whatever...but it'll keep the base from getting abraded when you plunk it down to fill the 357th guy's tires who begged air off you. Same with tank nets...it's just abrasion resistance, and they're cheap.

They only need to be used upright, they can be stored however you want...so if you want to keep it under a tonneau cover, it'll work as long as you stand it up to use it. As long as you're not getting liquid out the regulator, it's "upright" enough...hence some of the really trick tank brackets that keep the bottle at an angle.

Get a bag or something to cover the reg, and keep the hose, chuck, etc. attached to the tank unless the tank is kept inside or your reg cover is REALLY well sealed. If enough dust (it doesn't take much) gets in the QR on the regulator, it won't take the hose, and then you get to pat yourself on the back for bringing a spare regulator. A ziploc bag over a shop towel, contained in a drawstring nylon bag, zip tied close to the reg body, was not enough to keep sand out of the QR during a 4-day trip through the Maze. I did get it clean, but it took a while.

I've considered long term having a pair of 5# or 10# tanks, rather than a single 15# (or 20#, but that's for the welder), just for redundancy in the middle of nowhere and to keep the profile low (the small tanks fit below the bed rail).

The bungee cord thing was probably a joke, but I'm gonna say it anyway, never use bungees or rubber cord or anything stretchy to hold down anything heavy, especially inside your rig. Yeah, yeah, a bunch of people are gonna claim how it's always worked for them, and what on earth could go wrong...let me know how that works out in an accident, flop, roll, emergency brake or highway maneuver, whatever. Wind at highway speed is enough to raise ski bags off a roof rack when they're only tied with bungees. Lock that thing down, it doesn't take much...ratcheting tie down straps work fine. Another good solution is a simple piece of metal strap from the hardware store, with a piece of plumber's cloth (fabric reinforced rubber) to keep from abrading the tank, and a couple fasteners and you're set. Support the top and the bottom of the tank or it'll slowly work itself loose. The hose should be long enough to reach all four tires when the tank is placed at any corner...I can reach the opposite front tire just fine with the tank mounted in the rear corner of the bed.

Try this to estimate how many tires you can fill with a given weight of CO2.

-Sean

[spindleshanks]

Thanks for the input everybody! See, anybody with C02 is a fan of it. I'm glad there are some other options out there. Devinsixtyseven found a cheaper regulator by almost $10.
Good deal!

And Molly was right about sharing C02. I would fill everybody's tires without asking for a dime, but as we learned yesterday at Coney Flats, a tank seems to work great for the first fillup (I went from 15 to 38 psi in my 33" tires in only a couple minutes) but performance decreases as it gets colder, to the point where it took forever to air up Nate's 32s. C02 is not ideal for "group service". That's why everybody needs their own setup.

And, as for the bungee, I'm not kidding. But I will start using a ratcheting tie-down instead. It just makes more sense.
I appreciate your safety consciousness, Devin.

[spindleshanks]

Jarboarder;
Here is the 20# C02 tank that I've got.

It's big and heavy and steel. I'd estimate its weight at 10 lbs empty.
No, a bungee cord would be the wrong way to strap this one down... It measures 27 1/4" from base to top of valve handle, and 8" diameter.


All it needs to be functional is a regulator (which will thread right on) and a hose/chuck. Seriously though, this one would require some bracketry to mount it solidly. Not sure if it's appropriate for your needs, but for $20 its yours.

If you had this setup, you'd be the life of the party. There's probably 70 tire fills in there.

[Lysmachia]

I wish I had more room in tippy. I would so take that thing!

[spindleshanks]

It'd be an awesome start to somebody's C02 setup.

I could see it mounting with metal straps to the bed of a pickup, horizontally with the top facing the tailgate. Just loosen the straps, slide it out, and air up.

Since it's a steel unit rather than aluminum, it's much less vulnerable to damage. It's also sprayed down with rubberized undercoating.

[85xtracab]

Hey Jeremy,
I gotta talk to Jared a little more but i think me and him are gonna get that tank from you. Then mount it on my truck when i get it out here. That would be the perfect size for the two of us to share for tires/tools.

[Brandon]

I have CO2 and want to get and engine driven compressor with a small tank. Perhaps someday.....
It's been said already but I'll say it again. The cost isn't a big deal but it's such a PITA for me to get my tank filled.

[Lysmachia]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I have CO2 and want to get and engine driven compressor with a small tank. Perhaps someday.....
It's been said already but I'll say it again. The cost isn't a big deal but it's such a PITA for me to get my tank filled.

X2... but it fills tires so much faster than the compresser! (sp?)

[spindleshanks]

Originally Posted by 85xtracab

Hey Jeremy,
I gotta talk to Jared a little more but i think me and him are gonna get that tank from you. Then mount it on my truck when i get it out here. That would be the perfect size for the two of us to share for tires/tools.

Awesome. It'd work great on your rig, because you could mount it a variety of different ways. And it'd be perfect for big tires/multiple vehicles.

[RedRunnertc]

NOTE: when using CO2 with air tools, you have to understand it's different than with a compressor!

First, the impact gun will get VERY cold. Wear gloves if your gun has a metal handle!

Second, they take A LOT of air to run. Use the impact to break the bolt loose, but run it out by hand, then run it in a ways by hand, then finish it off with the impact. Otherwise, you will run out of CO2 quickly! (Don't ask how I know this... but it's why we didn't use the CO2/impact gun when doing my tranny/transfer cases)

[85xtracab]

Originally Posted by RedRunnertc

NOTE: when using CO2 with air tools, you have to understand it's different than with a compressor!

First, the impact gun will get VERY cold. Wear gloves if your gun has a metal handle!

Second, they take A LOT of air to run. Use the impact to break the bolt loose, but run it out by hand, then run it in a ways by hand, then finish it off with the impact. Otherwise, you will run out of CO2 quickly! (Don't ask how I know this... but it's why we didn't use the CO2/impact gun when doing my tranny/transfer cases)

Yea the tanks do go quicker when you use them with tools, but it helps speed it up so much more. I would definitely wear gloves with metal handles as well those handles get so freakin cold. Definitely a reason jared and i opted for a larger tank so we will have air to spare.

[GodyillaTaco]

you need to go find you self a york compressor...it is belt driven and and put out more than enough air to run all power tools!!!! they are just hard to find.......... you can also use a compressor off a 70-80's cadillac not sure on the model it works just as well

[85xtracab]

IMO i would rather have an Air Tank for my situation. I just need bursts of air, and short uses of tools, mostly air for tires. If i was going out on longer expedition like trips and wasnt keeping it bare bones i might. The yorks are nice tho especially if you have a decent sized tank to pump into.

[AxleIke]

20 lbs set ups are sweet. I can do 13 trips on my 33's. That is 3 months of wheeling every weekend.

I love CO2. I will NEVER own a york, as I LOVE my AC and use it constantly. If you have no AC, or don't like it, by all means, it works great.

I dissagree about Air tools. I run mine all the time. Did my airlocker install using it, and my tcase removal and install. Made life super nice. I also have a big tank.

[devinsixtyseven]

That 20# black tank would be great for running tools...it'll soak heat, which will increase the pressure of the gaseous CO2 a little. Could make a difference on a cold day.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Lysmachia

X2... but it fills tires so much faster than the compresser! (sp?)

An electric pump, yes. Engine driven pumps can put out a lot or air though.

Both CO2 and a compressor would be nice.

[RedRunnertc]

Originally Posted by Brandon

Both CO2 and a compressor would be nice.

Reminds me of Caddyshack:

"Pool, pool and a pond. Pond would be good for you"

[RedRunnertc]

My dad is a hot air balloon pilot, and they have these heated covers for the propane bottles to keep from pulling liquid propane into the burners (which is BAD).

I'll have to ask him how they are powered - it would be awesome to keep the CO2 from freezing up.

[Wildturkee]

Troy why not use a NOS bottle warmer? they work great to get the pressure up in them, why not on a CO2 bottle also?

[RedRunnertc]

That would probably work too... plus be designed to work in a car.

But if I went somewhere to buy one, I would be tempted to pursue my "nitrous altitude compensation" idea for the 4Runner...

[spindleshanks]

dude, you're a mad, mad scientist.

[AxleIke]

I would pay to see that. I would also take bets.

My personal bet would be about 300 feet of accelleration before that 3.0 blew. Those things have to be rebuilt to handle even a MINIMAL turbo boost.

[RedRunnertc]

We're not talking a 200 shot here fellas - just enough to make the engine think it's at sea level.

[AxleIke]

You know you can't leave it alone that much....I'm betting you'd wanna see if it could take on the Impala....LOL