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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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products for body work

I need some schooling on body work products. I'm patching up some sheet metal on my FJ40 (rear quarter panels and tub), and I'll need to use some filler to finish it up and smooth out the patches. I also need to fill in some bends and seams where the old metal meets the new metal inside the tub. What do I need to know in terms of the products out there?

Seam Sealer: 3M seems to be a popular manufacturer, but there are many varieties. Should I just look for general all-purpose stuff in a caulking tube? Anything I should look for?

Filler: Same questions really. Am I looking for anything special? Fiberglass-based?

And where is a good place to buy this stuff? Are there specialty stores, or should I just hit up Napa or Carquest for the small amounts I'll need? What else do I need to know?

Thanks for the input.

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 12:46 PM
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Pretty sure good old bondo is going to be your best bet, but we will see what Nate suggests.




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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 05:58 PM
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Seam Sealer -

I would personally not recommend anything but a 2 part seam sealer. Seam sealers cannot be laid over bare metal, the metal must be prepped, and primed with self etching primer before laying seam sealer. The one part sealers are junk, and will just create more problems then they are worth in the long run, essentially it'll bring back what you already fixed. There are different 2 part sealers, some are more durable than others and each one has a different use. I don't know part numbers off of the top of my head but I'll check when I get into work tomorrow and get the part # for what will best suite your application. You're looking in the right direction with 3m products though, as the old saying goes "you get what you pay for". Spending a little more money NOW (body work/prep stages) will save you TONS of money down the road. Try to see if you can find someone you know to borrow a 2 part mixing gun, otherwise they are rather expensive to buy for a one time project.

Bondo -

Bondo is bondo, again I'd recommend 3m personally, but there's really no specifics you need to know about it. Bondo is more in the mixing than anything, make sure the bondo/hardener ratio is correct. Too much hardener, and it'll dry to fast and shrink, not enough wont really hurt anything however it's not ideal as it takes extended periods of time to dry, or may never dry. I prefer blue hardener myself, but they offer red as well. Both are exactly the same, just different colors; it's ideal to have both if you're planning on laying multiple layers. When mixing, do not mix on a cardboard template/mixing plate, it'll suck a lot of the needed additives, and moisture out of the bondo before you even start smearing it; you do not want this. Use an aluminum mixing plate (preferred) or steel. When actually mixing the bondo with the hardener, most people will flip it; IE: push it one way across the board than flip it over onto itself; this creates little air bubbles/pockets which will later create pin holes once you begin to sand it down. Do everything in ONE direction, leaning the putty knife @ 45* angle, and just keep moving across the bondo 'puddle' on the board. Make sure it's free/clean of any contaminants (lacquer thinner works best for this) and scrub everything down right when you finish in a small coffee can with lacquer thinner in it using a piece of red scotch bright.

Before applying sand the metal/rough it up with a flap wheel, or some 80 grit paper so the bondo has more to stick too. After it's applied, and dry, knock down any rough/larger edges with some 36grit paper on a block while its still kind of soft then let it finish 'curing' (cure time will take anywhere from 30-45 minutes, dependent on temperature, humidity, hardener, etc.) Once it's completely cured go back over all of it with a block, and 80 grit until its feathered out nicely with the panels, and is straight. If you break through back to the metal before you get the bondo straight, mix another batch and re-smear the area. Do not let bondo build up more than 1/8th if you can of an inch as it'll create problems in the future, 1/4" is acceptable, and will most likely be OK, but it is not ideal. If you have some serious filling to do (big suck spots you cannot get out, etc.) I would use duraglass in those areas.

After the bondo is all smoothed out with 80grit, guide coat it (any black paint will work, just lightly spray a 'speckled' type coat over the bondo) and block it with 180 to kill off some of the scratches. Do it lightly, as you do not have to get ALL of the scratches out. Go with a high build poly primer (anything PPG/Nexa/Autocolor is good product) and coat the area of mud work with at least 3 good thick coats (i prefer more myself, the more primer you use, the more you can block, the straighter you can get it). Absolutely do not use any rattle can primers, they're junk and will have to be completely sanded off before any true automotive paint is sprayed on the vehicle.

We get all of our products from Painters Supply down in denver (Sante Fe and Iliff, its just before red and jerrys, where all of that new development is).

If you have any other questions PM me or post here, i'll get those seam sealer part numbers to you tomorrow. Let me know when you're going to be starting on the mud work portion and I'd be happy to help you out. Lafayette isn't too far from Brighton.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 08:25 PM
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meh - filler shmiller. You have a welder and a grinder, use it!

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 10:20 PM
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Filler has to be used to clean up final welds, and smooth them out so they cannot be seen through the paint
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-30-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00regcab View Post
If you have any other questions PM me or post here, i'll get those seam sealer part numbers to you tomorrow. Let me know when you're going to be starting on the mud work portion and I'd be happy to help you out. Lafayette isn't too far from Brighton.
Fuck that, post here so we can all hear the answers. Fuckin great info right there Nate! I'm not sure I'll ever put together show quality finish on my pile of crap, but if I did, I'll be looking up this post.

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Nate. I can't find the :bowdown: smiley here or I would have used it. You da man!

Filler is a requirement for what I'm doing. There was already 1/4" on the right qtr panel before I sanded it off to get to bare metal, and between the alignment challenges and my ability to weld sheet I'm going to need some cover up to finish her off. The left side is better, but...

And thanks for the offer to help Nate. I'm not sure when I'll get to the finishing steps, but when I do your help will be much appreciated. I don't need it to be perfect, and if I completely botch it I'll just save up for a full replacement QP.


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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 06:00 PM
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Forgot to get the seam sealer #'s for you today, I'll try to remember tomorrow.

With what you're doing there, you do not need to use seam sealer on the front side, just the back side. Make sure it's covered around all of the welds really well and there are no air pockets in it.

The patch panel looks good, follows the body lines well, but you're making it hard on yourself welding through the corner. Instances such as these, its almost better to just cut the whole corner out of a donor tub, and weld it into yours where the sheet metal is straight. The round curve is going to be hard to obtain again, and with it being in such a vulnerable spot you may see some damage back there eventually creating problems with the bondo cracking (like my bed on my truck).

Looks like a fun project though, Matt! Keep us posted
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 07:08 PM
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looks great. You should do it old school, and use lead as your filler.




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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:01 PM
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So how come we haven't seen any pictures of this rig yet? You didn't even brag to us about buying it!

1980 Toyota Pickup: CB antenna, custom 2-tone paint, duct tape mod, weight reduction, 29" meats. sway bar and torque bar removed for MAD FLEX.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:06 PM
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Get over to the national board more often, Kyle.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...d.php?t=103084
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:18 PM
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Get over to the national board more often, Kyle.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...d.php?t=103084

Holy crap.. i never go to the nat boards... nice find!

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:19 PM
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He mentioned he had bought it on a run last summer.




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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00regcab View Post
With what you're doing there, you do not need to use seam sealer on the front side, just the back side. Make sure it's covered around all of the welds really well and there are no air pockets in it.

The patch panel looks good, follows the body lines well, but you're making it hard on yourself welding through the corner. Instances such as these, its almost better to just cut the whole corner out of a donor tub, and weld it into yours where the sheet metal is straight. The round curve is going to be hard to obtain again, and with it being in such a vulnerable spot you may see some damage back there eventually creating problems with the bondo cracking (like my bed on my truck).

Looks like a fun project though, Matt! Keep us posted
Thanks. I was actually thinking the seam sealer would be necessary for where the old tub bed comes together with the new piece, and for the corners where the doors are. But what you are saying about the back of the cut seams makes sense too.

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So how come we haven't seen any pictures of this rig yet? You didn't even brag to us about buying it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdoug
Holy crap.. i never go to the nat boards... nice find!
Thanks. I'm not much of a bragger....just trying to learn a few new tricks and have fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ike
He mentioned he had bought it on a run last summer.
See - I do get out and wheel every once in a while.

The 40 has seen a bit of trail time, but I had some issues with the tranny that I have yet to resolve. Does pretty good at the mall though....

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 11:25 AM
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I havent seen the 40 on the trail yet, just the taco. But hopefully this summer we get to see it a bit.




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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:17 PM
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Dammit. Okay, I'm an idiot. How did I miss this thread?

Ah well, I'll be folowing along here from now on.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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I wasn't really expecting it, but the right side turned out MUCH better than the left side.

Tacked



Grinded




Should I run a bead of seam sealer along the lines of the patch panel? Both front and back?

Can seam sealer be sanded?

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Last edited by Jacket; 04-03-2009 at 01:53 PM.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 10:26 AM
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LOOKS AWESOME!! Great work Matt!

Can't wait to see the finished product!
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 12:25 PM
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X2




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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 10:40 PM
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Just run it along the back side, Matt.

Try to fill in more of the gaps between each weld if you can, it'll help hold everything together in the long run. You also dont want to be trying to fill those cracks with bondo, as it'll stick to the seam sealer behind it then when the seam sealer flexes, it'll crack the bondo.

I chatted with the lady that comes into my work weekly to order supplies and such, there is a 1 part seam sealer that'll work well for applications such as these. Its essentially the same stuff as any OEM seam sealer around the fire wall, pinch welds, etc. She didnt get a part number to me before she left, but i'll check sometime over the weekend or early next week.

Coming along great! Wish i was half as productive as you are
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Question about priming:

Guide coat? - Is the idea here that you apply the black paint, and then sand it all back off (with the 180grit)? That way you know you've got all major cracks and defects smoothed out once the paint is all gone? Or if a defect is so bad that you can't sand it away, then you need more filler?

Primer - Do you sand the primer after each coat is applied? Wet sand with like a 300+ grit?

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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 04:48 PM
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alot of body guys have similar but diffrent opinions, so i may be a lil off on the grits but nate should be able to give us better answer but quickley

guidecoat is exactly what you said you'll see your deffects i black and once youve sanded everything perfectly flat and you dont see anymore of it your good. its tricky getting things straight and the guide coat helps, you just need to have a good block and technique, i try to think of it as technical sculpting, always keeping the block flat on the panel and sanding in an xpattern working straight panel to straight panel like cutting a lawn. a good primer surfacer/filler will work wonders for block sanding, you know you need to apply more if you hit metal or bondobefore the black is gone.

primer should be sanded with 320 dry, 400 wet.... thats what i get the best results, a rough cut with the 320 is good for your first of many coats of primer and 400 is great when everything is flat and the orange peal neads to go bye bye.

and always make sure to read the msds sheets you get with products they have alot of great info on them, so there will be no need to ask

nate anything else to add?
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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I never posted up the end result. I made a few mistakes in the finishing work, but all in all I'm pretty happy with it.


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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:38 PM
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Looks good Matt!

Sorry i missed your previous posts.

I'll fill in for future reference though.

Ben, pretty close. But as stated, everyone uses different techniques.

Me, personally, as a person who does prep work for PRODUCTION purposes (get the car in, out, and back to the customer ASAP) I do it differently.

As you might imagine, finer grits do not cut as fast, thus they're more time consuming to get the same final result. As is going back and mixing more primer once you've found out you didn't originally get enough down. I personally load up the primer, starting with 1 wet but smooth even coat over just the areas that have had mud work done on them. From there I continue heavy, even coats 1" out from the previous until I am about 6" out from each side of the original coat. I do this, waiting for flash time (about 3-5 minutes between each coat on a decently warm day) then doing the next coat.

Note, you must sand the areas around where the mud is with at LEAST 320. I personally go about 3" out with 180 on a DA, then out about another 3" from that with 320. Paint does not stick to shiny shit. It's that simple, anything that still has a shine to the paint will not adhere properly. If primer gets sprayed over shiny paint, it will create a HUGE mess in the future.

Before the primer has dried at all I guide coat it to make sure there are no blatantly obvious imperfections in the mud work that need to be fixed. After the primer has dried I block with 120g on a 12" block (different blocks will work better in different area's, for different sized spots of primer, they make blocks in 4", 6", 8", 12", 16", 24" and other various sizes up to about 3ft (one hell of a block! lol). Keep in mind, when I start with 120g I know my primer has been caked on, and I have A LOT of room to work before breaking through anywhere. I do a quick blocking (in the X pattern Ben mentioned, as well as straight across the panel front to back) to knock down the orange peel, and smooth of some of the roughness high build primer leaves. I then re-guide coat and block with 180 making sure to not go past where the primer ends so it feathers out nicely. After the 180 step is done, it's time to guide coat (again), and block with 240. 240 is where I spend a little more time, making sure to get everything smoothed up and straight as can be.

I then check it with grease/wax (water works as well) for any waves/ripples that need a little more blocking. If waves/ripples are present in the primer, guide coat again, and block again with 180, then 240. If everything looks smooth/good, then proceed with guide coating again and wet sanding with 400 or 600 (personal preference, I personally use 600) on a 6" rubber block doing the same blocking motions. After it's been blocked out wet, go back over it by hand in circles to finish it off and get any last little imperfections out. DO NOT work one little area with any grit paper, this will create a wave in the primer, which will show up in paint.

A side note, NEVER hard line primer. As in, lay the tape down, flat on the panel, and primer right up to it. For some reason, if you do so, even if you sand it down, you will ALWAYS see that line (unless you take it to bare metal). I've lost my ass on a few jobs because I messed up and did that, then I had to strip the panel and start over. Always back mask, or 'roll' the tape . The easiest trick to back masking is take the paper you're using, lay the tape 1/2 on the paper, 1/2 on the panel. Have the paper covering the area you want to prime. After the tape is laid, fold the paper over away from the area you are going to be priming. This will leave a nice rolled edge, but I still do NOT recommend priming all the way up to that point.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2009, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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A side note, NEVER hard line primer. As in, lay the tape down, flat on the panel, and primer right up to it. For some reason, if you do so, even if you sand it down, you will ALWAYS see that line (unless you take it to bare metal). I've lost my ass on a few jobs because I messed up and did that, then I had to strip the panel and start over. Always back mask, or 'roll' the tape . The easiest trick to back masking is take the paper you're using, lay the tape 1/2 on the paper, 1/2 on the panel. Have the paper covering the area you want to prime. After the tape is laid, fold the paper over away from the area you are going to be priming. This will leave a nice rolled edge, but I still do NOT recommend priming all the way up to that point.
Yea - I could have used this advice about a week ago.....

I made the mistake of taping off a section close to the repair area for the first round of priming and painting. After removing the tape and realizing my mistake, I sanded it back down a bit and then put a few more coats on the enter rear panel below the top and to the door. I wasn't willing to start over, so there's a noticeable line in the right light. Oh well - learn and move on....

Thanks for the detailed post Nate - great info!

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post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 01:04 PM
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i hate body work...............i just dont have the patience.....the 40 looks awsome!

Built not bought!!!
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