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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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Tread Lightly People

Ok, time for a little rant.

First of all, lets start out by remembering that TTORA is based off the fundamentals of Tread Lightly and the Blue Ribbon Coalition - both responsible land use organizations that promote recreation while keeping lands open for us to enjoy our hobby.

After reading the "Douglas" thread, it's quite apparent that some people don't care to keep their junk on established trails. Suggesting "virgin lines" with cactus growing smack dab in the middle of the line is hardly abiding by the Tread Lightly ideals. It's people like that who ruin it for everyone when the Forest Service shuts down an area. Want to give 4 wheelers a bad name? Go trample some desert, put rubber marks and rear-diff rock scrapes where pristine desert used to be.

I'm not trying to be Mr. Liberal Treehugger because I'm far form it. I like 4wheeling just as much as everyone on here. However, established trails are for trucks and virgin desert is not. Ever see all the "trails" going straight up to the peaks on some of the foothills of South Mountain? I know the guys who used to run them before it was all blocked off. Back in the 70's. It's still scarred after 30+ years.

Now some will come back at me saying that the "best" 4.5 trails are made by people picking a line through the desert and going with it. Probably so. However, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about wheeling your rig. If it's there and established, go for it. If you go out and make new trails, quit being lazy and drive to find established trails that will challenge your rig. You're in one of the best states for 4 wheeling, there's plenty out there.

*end rant*

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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 09:20 PM
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Amen brother!
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 10:12 PM
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Yeah, I am guilty of commenting on that thread, but knew it was not right. Good man for calling us out on this one. I think we can sometimes get complacent.

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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 10:24 PM
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Point taken. Thank-you!

I edited that post to correct our oversite.

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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I am guilty of commenting on that thread, but knew it was not right. Good man for calling us out on this one. I think we can sometimes get complacent.
It's all good. We've all been tempted to romp up something that looked fun. Too much of that and places start looking like the first five miles of the Four Peaks Road!

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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 11:04 PM
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I know that there are always rules and regulations, But this is Down in douglas that we are talking about! where wheeling is not under the microscope like it is here in the valley. I to zoned in on the catus first before the rest of the picture, But I believe that down in douglas where wheeling is not looked down upon because it is not a highly populated area like it is is here in the valley and destroying the enviroment is not an issue and OUR land should and will be enjoyed irreguardless of what some bitches say on here or any other board for that matter! my 2c
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 06:42 AM
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So because less people are watching you or care, you change your tread lightly ethic?

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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 08:00 AM
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I know that there are always rules and regulations, But this is Down in douglas that we are talking about!
If we applied that logic to life in general the world would go to shit quick. Acting like a fuck up when no one is watching is fine when it only affects you (the vid of the kid shooting bottle rockets out of his ass comes to mind). When it is blazing new trails (BTG guys are guilty of this too) and telling the world about it that is a whole other issue. Greenies can use these sorts of posts as ammo. If you see somewhere you want to explore.... hike it.

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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 08:57 AM
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I know that there are always rules and regulations, But this is Down in douglas that we are talking about! where wheeling is not under the microscope like it is here in the valley. I to zoned in on the catus first before the rest of the picture, But I believe that down in douglas where wheeling is not looked down upon because it is not a highly populated area like it is is here in the valley and destroying the enviroment is not an issue and OUR land should and will be enjoyed irreguardless of what some bitches say on here or any other board for that matter! my 2c


If "enjoying" our environment means tearing the shit out of untraveled sections of land, maybe you should get a new hobby.

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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by yotamonkey View Post
I know that there are always rules and regulations, But this is Down in douglas that we are talking about! where wheeling is not under the microscope like it is here in the valley. I to zoned in on the catus first before the rest of the picture, But I believe that down in douglas where wheeling is not looked down upon because it is not a highly populated area like it is is here in the valley and destroying the enviroment is not an issue and OUR land should and will be enjoyed irreguardless of what some bitches say on here or any other board for that matter! my 2c
With all due respect, any and all land use in the US is being viewed under a microscope. I understand your frustration with regard to use of land that is available to the public, but please don't miss the point. Giving anyone the opportunity to play "chicken little" (i.e. enviro groups, "Oh look at what those nasty OHV people are doing!") is foolish and irresponsible.

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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:07 AM
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... and OUR land should and will be enjoyed irreguardless of what some bitches say on here or any other board for that matter! my 2c
Not a f*cking word! The second someone makes up new words they lose all credibility for whatever they're talking about....here's your sign

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:13 AM
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Trails

How in the world do you think trails became trails. Did the BLM open them up? I hope your not waiting to see that happen. You don't have to tear the hell out of the environment climbing up a rock waterfall. Cutting up dirt hills is another thing all together. Have you seen what the guys who "don't need no stinking lockers" have done to the side of Scorpian by climbing up thru the dirt on the right side? Just my opinion.
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:40 AM
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This is a tough topic because some of the best trails have been created by driving up wash to a fall or whatever. however most of our trails here in az are old mining access that has been not been maintained for years. Still if your going and "cutting" a trail even being repsectful of the land it can come under fire in a heartbeat no matter what part of the country you are in. Private owned lands are a differnt story if the owner is allowing it.

Seems alot of the buggy crowd is going and finding new stuff, by new stuff I mean making new trails. Im 50/50 on this and i think its cool that new hardcore stuff is poping up but on the other hand this is thin ice to be on. The thing about washes is alot of times you have no idea its even a trail expect for the road leading in and out of it. When I think of trail cutting I think of some jackass ripping across raw desert with cacti flying....dunno tough subject.

yotamonkey seems you have blinders on, it does not matter what part of the state you are in be aware someone somewhere is watching. Dont feed the animals with more reasons to rain on our parade of enjoying wheeling
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:43 AM
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 10:02 AM
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I've already been scolded. I know nothing, see nothing, and hear nothing! I agree that there are very few "approved" trails around, unless you are talking about the mentioned "old mining roads". Bottom line, don't post pics and describe areas that may someday become, or not become a trail. Everyone should be concerned about "misuse" of "our" lands or we will certainly lose them. The location is completely irrelevant because there are numerous groups whose sole purpose in life seems to be preventing fun, and they will use ANY ammunition to accomplish this goal.

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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 10:19 AM
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How in the world do you think trails became trails. Did the BLM open them up? I hope your not waiting to see that happen. You don't have to tear the hell out of the environment climbing up a rock waterfall. Cutting up dirt hills is another thing all together. Have you seen what the guys who "don't need no stinking lockers" have done to the side of Scorpian by climbing up thru the dirt on the right side? Just my opinion.
After a nice long discussion with one the environmental activists group here in AZ, they said that they would be happy, and I quote, "if there were no new trails created starting today". With the abundance of trails in this state, at all levels with or without lockers, we have it pretty damn good here. I personally would be very satisfied with running only the known existing trails for the tradeoff of keeping them open while making the environmentalists happy. That's not a bad compromise if you ask me!

Yes, it is OUR land but we are not the ONLY people using it. There are others who like to recreate (including myself), other than wheeling, and they should be allowed to enjoy it just as we do. Look at Moab. That is a place where some of the best wheeling and mountain biking are in the US. There is a balance and respect for each activity there. If the state of Utah can figure it out, then there's no reason AZ can't.

Another great example it the Rubicon. When I was there last year I spent 3 days hiking and 2 days rock climbing in the area as well as 3 days wheeling the 'Con. When I was hiking & climbing it was nice to get away into the wilderness and away from civilization...until I saw some jackass with his kid on dirt bikes on our hiking trail where there were clearly signs posted "no motorized vehicles". Being the outspoken person I am, and doing my part to help keep trails open, I had to go out of my way to catch him & say something. To my surprise he was not an A-hole who didn't give a sh*t and just blazed wherever. He had a map that was 2 years old that said that that trail was "open" to dirt bikes and they only had enough gas to get out that way. He was very apologetic and understood that what he was doing was wrong, but this was a special case...and I agreed.

The point is this: we have a lot of great trails to run here in the southwestern United States that are under constant scrutiny. It's up to each and every one of us to stand together as RESPONSIBLE off-roaders and tread lightly only on existing trails and call out those who don't. We need to "share" the land just as others "share" it with us. I for one do not want to see any of my favorite recreations go away because of the carelessness of others.

Just remember...we got it pretty good as it stands right now. Let's not push our luck.

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 10:28 AM
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How in the world do you think trails became trails. Did the BLM open them up? I hope your not waiting to see that happen. You don't have to tear the hell out of the environment climbing up a rock waterfall. Cutting up dirt hills is another thing all together. Have you seen what the guys who "don't need no stinking lockers" have done to the side of Scorpian by climbing up thru the dirt on the right side? Just my opinion.
I agree that this is how a lot of trails came to be, but now with more and more people getting out, they go to shit real fast. Someone who went out and bought there first 4x4 and wants to go out and test it, they follow tire tracks until they find something cool to mess around on. Then they show their friends and end up tearing up the trail and rock stacking etc.

I think we can all agree that blazing trails in open desert is the worst, but blazing new washes and falls isn't much better

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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:32 PM
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Now if the greenies could just figure out a way to stop rains storms we'd be all set and nothing in those washes would ever get moved or disturbed.

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I think we can all agree that blazing trails in open desert is the worst, but blazing new washes and falls isn't much better

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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:51 PM
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Now if the greenies could just figure out a way to stop rains storms we'd be all set and nothing in those washes would ever get moved or disturbed.
Isn't that what those Al Gore lightbulbs are supposed to do?

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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:55 PM
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Fuck those lightbulbs they don't work with a dimmer switch -

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Isn't that what those Al Gore lightbulbs are supposed to do?

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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:55 PM
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This is an important discussion that needs to be had every once in a while to stay sharp… it’s easy to get lazy and sloppy when it comes to wheeling... especially a place like this where the emphasis is on hardcore 4x4.

Just deleting a picture or post every once in a while isn’t good enough… if actual practices aren’t stopped, then no real benefit has been achieved. The solution needs to go beyond simply concern for the 4WD image and address the underlying values - As long as this is viewed by clubs as merely a “public perception issue” it will continue to be a problem.

I think many of the 'commitments' and 'standards' are more lip-service than belief for a lot of clubs. In the end, the proof is in our actions, not our words, and discussions such as this can only help to challenge people's attitudes.

There is a problem out there and we can either let envirofreaks set the agenda or be proactive and responsible… and part of that means regulating members and encouraging a culture of a club or association to do what’s right-- and not give people the bullets to shoot us with. In this 'battle of ideas' we want to public on OUR side, not with the greenie wackjobs.

There goes my soapbox...
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:58 PM
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Fuck those lightbulbs they don't work with a dimmer switch -
Yeah, but it hasn't rained in your living room has it?.......... They must be working!

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:01 PM
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one can't help stop the evolution line.. of land and man... climate change and man alike are chaging the face of Earth itself not only the dessert here in arizona... I have lived in many states and visited many more.. I have wheeled in 24 out of 26 (Alaska and Hawaii).... there is no one to point the finger at unless it is directly affecting the area... like cuting down the cactus...
when a trail or trails are used to their extent one needs to find a new trail.. that is the time to take into consideration should we cut the cactus or not? it may be the best line between point a and b.. or it may not... example..
if to get from point a to b on trail Z you need to traverse 3 miles but it it only takes 1 mile on trail X but there is a cactus in the way... cut it down.. you will save 2miles of dessert, home to many animals and plants (cactus) ...less fuel cunsumption less emissions.. less time out trampling over land... less garbaje ppl leave ..less oil spills... I am not saying go out and cut all cacti down just cut it down if you absolutly have to... I think weather conditions also have a grate part in the changes made to land.. its just slower.. and it gives back as much as it takes.... wind might distroy some trees but it disperses polen and water might flood burrows and dens but it brings life for the new plants and the survivors....
what we need to do or suold try to do is to give back to the dessert and land... if you have to cut a cactus... first try transplanting it.. or planting 2 or 3 others in replacement... need to move a tree ? pant 3 more else where... need to dry out a water hole create another one so not to un balance the ecological system established...

I work on an oil rigg most ppl dont think we care about the land... thats BS we do.. beacuse we need it to survive...

ps: Im going out today to the trails around saguaro lake.. taking withme a few empty garbage bagas.. while wheeling picking up others garbage... I like it here and thats why i moved here...i intend on doing my part

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:27 PM
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I'm gona paint my truck desert camo so no one can see me when I wheel. Gona spray me and the truck down with havileena<sp?> piss so no one can smell me either.

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:27 PM
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:31 PM
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I'm gona paint my truck desert camo so no one can see me when I wheel.
I already started to take care of that on mine!

......... not that anybody's going to turn me in for wheeling the riparian area in my garage!

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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:33 PM
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...Gona spray me and the truck down with havileena<sp?> piss so no one can smell me either.
That'll definitely be an improvement!

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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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one can't help stop the evolution line.. of land and man... climate change and man alike are chaging the face of Earth itself not only the dessert here in arizona... I have lived in many states and visited many more.. I have wheeled in 24 out of 26 (Alaska and Hawaii).... there is no one to point the finger at unless it is directly affecting the area... like cuting down the cactus...
when a trail or trails are used to their extent one needs to find a new trail.. that is the time to take into consideration should we cut the cactus or not? it may be the best line between point a and b.. or it may not... example..
if to get from point a to b on trail Z you need to traverse 3 miles but it it only takes 1 mile on trail X but there is a cactus in the way... cut it down.. you will save 2miles of dessert, home to many animals and plants (cactus) ...less fuel ....

Blah Blah ...

ps: Im going out today to the trails around saguaro lake.. taking withme a few empty garbage bagas.. while wheeling picking up others garbage... I like it here and thats why i moved here...i intend on doing my part
This is the longest sentence I've ever seen. When did this thread turn into javelina piss and cutting down all the cacti?

Thanks for cleaning up the desert, but have an intelligent point when you post please.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 04:33 PM
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This is the longest sentence I've ever seen. When did this thread turn into javelina piss and cutting down all the cacti?

Thanks for cleaning up the desert, but have an intelligent point when you post please.
Why post an intelligent response on an important topic when you can just be a post whore instead?

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when a trail or trails are used to their extent one needs to find a new trail.. that is the time to take into consideration should we cut the cactus or not? it may be the best line between point a and b.. or it may not... example..
if to get from point a to b on trail Z you need to traverse 3 miles but it it only takes 1 mile on trail X but there is a cactus in the way... cut it down.. you will save 2miles of dessert, home to many animals and plants (cactus) ...less fuel cunsumption less emissions.. less time out trampling over land... less garbaje ppl leave ..less oil spills...
I'm not sure precisely what you're trying to say here since it's tough to read, but it seems like you are advocating cutting new trails in order to help the environment. Be sure to get back to me once you've secured that degree in biology.
If you are truley concerned about emmissions, oil spills, time out trampling over land and disturbing animal habitat then don't wheel. that is the only "best" solution. It is recreation, not a requirement of life. Driving a slightly longer distance on an existing trail is always a better plan since, if you're wheeling to begin with, you're obviously not that concerned about emissions.
And since you mentioned "less garbage" - that has nothing to do with length of the trail, only the intelligence of the people utilizing it.

Working in the construction industry I have a front row seat to many of the arguements made by environmentalists about the preservation of habitat. Washes are often considered "riparian" habitat in AZ and that's what enviros are the most vocal about protecting. If you think driving a wash is less of an impact than driving the flat desert you may well be correct, but it's often seen as being as bad or worse.

The longer the blinders stay on the closer we will get to being restricted to offroad parks and a couple fire roads.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 06:02 PM
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I think he's trying to say that things can be done to minimize the impact were having but things will not be perfect and the options have to explored and sometimes killing one cactus will save a lot more somewhere else. I am in no way an enviromentalist, I believe in conservation. I try to remove and kill trees near utility lines for a living but don't think we need to cut every living tree down.

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