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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-23-2005, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Trail Traffic and User Conflicts

http://www.latimes.com/features/outd...,7260983.story
?coll=la-headlines-outdoors&ctrack=3&cset=true

Trail traffic

Conflicts among hikers, bikers and horse riders cause dust-ups on the
ground.

By Charles Duhigg, Times Staff Writer

The rain stopped, and scores of day hikers, mountain bikers and horse riders
converged on the Mulholland Scenic Overlook trail, one of the busiest paths
in the Santa Monica Mountains.

Gray clouds raced past shrubby hillsides, and soil turned to dark porridge.
The path through Sullivan Canyon resembled a fossil bed of hoof divots,
knobby boot prints and gracefully curving bicycle tracks. People come for
fun but often find conflict.

"You see those!" said Jim Frapton, a day hiker from Los Angeles, pointing to
deep grooves from bike tires. "The mountain bikers are killing this forest!
They come around corners at 30 mph! They'll kill me someday, or I'll kill
them first."

Such discord echoes across California as well as Moab, Utah, the Denver area
and most anywhere cities lap against mountains. As competing users crowd
onto trails, they blame one another for ruining their outdoor experience yet
often overlook how their own activity affects trails and other users. Hard
feelings sometimes result in fistfights, sabotage and lawsuits.

Experts say trails were not designed for so many different users, which
exacerbates the problem.

"Almost since mountain bikes were invented, there have been conflicts over
trail use," said Pam Gluck, executive director of American Trails, a
multiuse advocacy group. "Everyone blames someone else for trail damage, and
each group has different expectations." Hikers point fingers at mountain
bikes, and cyclists blame horses, but all users contribute to erosion.
Studies show that hiking boots and bike tires cause similar erosion, but
horse hoofs do the most damage.

In one key study, two Montana State University scientists installed pipes to
simulate rain across 108 portions of trails in and around Gallatin National
Forest. They hiked and rode bicycles and horses 100 times and measured how
boots, hoofs and tires displaced soil.

They found that hikers and horses "have more surface contact than the
mountain bike, so statistically, boots and hoofs cause more change," said
coauthor and geography professor John Wilson, who now teaches at USC.

The study, published in 1994 in the journal Mountain Research and
Development, also concluded that wet soil erodes more than dry ground,
though the study examined only a few soil types.

In a separate but similar study, a pair of Canadian researchers at the
University of Guelph in Ontario hiked and biked 500 times across four plots,
each a meter long, in Boyne Valley Provincial Park, then counted the plant
stems and plant species and measured the soil displacement in the affected
ground. They found that both activities eliminated plants on the path and
increased the amount of upturned soil by 54%. (The study only examined bikes
and hikers moving downhill on dry trails in deciduous forest.) The findings,
published in 2001 in the journal Environmental Management, show "that at a
similar intensity of activity, the short-term impacts of mountain biking and
hiking may not differ greatly."

But hiking advocates say those studies don't consider the extended range of
bikes. "If a mountain bike travels 50 miles in a day, and hikers travel only
five miles, the destruction caused by bikes is 10 times greater," said
Michael Vandeman, a San Francisco hiker who lobbies to close trails to
cyclists.

Real forest damage, say hiking and biking enthusiasts as well as experts, is
caused by poorly designed trails.

National Park Service officials say they can build lots of trails, but they
all erode in time. "Once rainwater begins following a rut created by a
trail, the soil will eventually become damaged," said Steve Griswold, a
trail builder at the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. "If a trail is
designed properly, no one group will do more damage."

Off-path destruction is another concern. It occurs when hikers and riders
strike out to form new routes or find sites not connected by trail. Said
Gluck of American Trails: "A good trail must anticipate what people want. If
there aren't any trails leading to a fantastic overlook, hikers will create
their own. If signs don't clearly communicate where trails lead, people will
cross back and forth."

Outdoors users often hit the trail with strikingly different expectations of
what fun is all about. Social scientists say those hopes lie at the root of
conflicts.

U.S. Forest Service studies show that whereas hikers frequently seek
tranquillity, mountain bikers want adrenaline. Hikers polled in the Los
Padres National Forest in 1989 said they objected to mountain bikers because
they ride too fast, have difficulty stopping on blind corners and startle
equestrians and hikers.

"Bikes are silent and fast," said Jim Absher, a social scientist with the
Forest Service. "If you've ever experienced someone roaring around a corner
at 30 mph, it's terrifying. That feeling is the opposite of what hikers want
from a forest trail."

Back at the Mulholland trail in the Santa Monica Mountains, Frapton dittoed
that. "I come here to relax, but it's impossible with all the bikes
constantly zipping past," he said. "These paths were built for hiking."

But a mountain biker prepping his bike nearby disagreed. He said cyclists
are not unmindful of hikers.

"I always make it a point to be courteous to hikers," said Jerry Flattery,
48, of Los Angeles, sitting atop his silver mountain bike. "There's more
bikers out here than hikers. If we use it more, why shouldn't it be ours?"

Despite safety concerns, accidents seem rare. A 1993 study of 40 Forest
Service managers found that only one hiker had been injured by a mountain
bike in the previous year.

Another federal survey of 1,400 users in California's Los Padres National
Forest in 1989 found that only 15 bike and hiker encounters were potentially
harmful, and the only accident involved bikes colliding with each other
when riders tried to avoid a hiker.

To prevent conflict, officials and trail users call for more paths to
separate bikes, horses and hikers.

"If I want to encourage bikers to go one direction and hikers another, signs
are ineffective," said Joey Klein, a trail building specialist with the
International Mountain Bike Assn. "Instead, I'll have the trail go through
sand. Bikers hate sand, but hikers love it."

Klein designed a Black Canyon trail in Prescott National Forest in Arizona
with water crossings that attract equestrians and dog walkers but deter
bikers.

The goal, Klein said, is to create trails that encourage users to move at
the same speed like the rocky paths around Fruita, Colo., that force
bikers and hikers to slow down.

"Hikers want to get to the summit as fast as possible, but bikers don't care
about vistas," Klein said. "Instead, they want hills that feel like a roller
coaster."
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-23-2005, 06:27 PM
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Why are they even arguing that trail users cause erosion? This is a given. We're allowed to cause erosion every once in a while. The point is to keep the erosion local to the trail. Stay on the trail. Just don't go -off- of the trail and screw up land that isn't supposed to be screwed up.

And if you can't hear a mountain bike coming down a trail at 30mph you have way more to worry about than trail use.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-23-2005, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadBob0
Why are they even arguing that trail users cause erosion? This is a given. We're allowed to cause erosion every once in a while. The point is to keep the erosion local to the trail. Stay on the trail. Just don't go -off- of the trail and screw up land that isn't supposed to be screwed up.

And if you can't hear a mountain bike coming down a trail at 30mph you have way more to worry about than trail use.
a good solution might be to make them all 2-track

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-23-2005, 08:20 PM
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I ride, hike, wheel, and have even riden horses thru the forest. I try to be courteous to all other trail users, but there are always issues no matter what the mode of transportation used is. I agree that poor trail design is not helpful at all. some areas are just not ment for bikes and visa versa. However, there is no money in just about any agency who manages these lands.
We can all do our little part by being kind to others on the trail no matter what activity.

BA HUMBUG!
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-24-2005, 10:41 AM
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This story illustrates the kind of magnifying glass that outdoor users are under...and the idea that "we're allowed to cause a little erosion every once in a while" is adorably naive. One example where we're not is Hueco Tanks Park in Texas where rock climbing has been banned from certain areas in the park to preserve inidgenous rockart that has long since faded and is currently invisible to the naked eye. Another example is the proposed ban on climbing of single route in Washnigton, the idea being that climbers (maybe 500 per year) will accelerate erosion along the trail (cairns) used to access the climb.

I guess my point is that access has been and can be denied to user groups for impacts, real or imagined, far less detrimental than those associated with offroading.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
http://www.latimes.com/features/outd...,7260983.story
?coll=la-headlines-outdoors&ctrack=3&cset=true

Trail traffic

Conflicts among hikers, bikers and horse riders cause dust-ups on the
ground.

By Charles Duhigg, Times Staff Writer

The rain stopped, and scores of day hikers, mountain bikers and horse riders
converged on the Mulholland Scenic Overlook trail, one of the busiest paths
in the Santa Monica Mountains.

Gray clouds raced past shrubby hillsides, and soil turned to dark porridge.
The path through Sullivan Canyon resembled a fossil bed of hoof divots,
knobby boot prints and gracefully curving bicycle tracks. People come for
fun but often find conflict.

"You see those!" said Jim Frapton, a day hiker from Los Angeles, pointing to
deep grooves from bike tires. "The mountain bikers are killing this forest!
They come around corners at 30 mph! They'll kill me someday, or I'll kill
them first."

Such discord echoes across California as well as Moab, Utah, the Denver area
and most anywhere cities lap against mountains. As competing users crowd
onto trails, they blame one another for ruining their outdoor experience yet
often overlook how their own activity affects trails and other users. Hard
feelings sometimes result in fistfights, sabotage and lawsuits.

Experts say trails were not designed for so many different users, which
exacerbates the problem.

"Almost since mountain bikes were invented, there have been conflicts over
trail use," said Pam Gluck, executive director of American Trails, a
multiuse advocacy group. "Everyone blames someone else for trail damage, and
each group has different expectations." Hikers point fingers at mountain
bikes, and cyclists blame horses, but all users contribute to erosion.
Studies show that hiking boots and bike tires cause similar erosion, but
horse hoofs do the most damage.

In one key study, two Montana State University scientists installed pipes to
simulate rain across 108 portions of trails in and around Gallatin National
Forest. They hiked and rode bicycles and horses 100 times and measured how
boots, hoofs and tires displaced soil.

They found that hikers and horses "have more surface contact than the
mountain bike, so statistically, boots and hoofs cause more change," said
coauthor and geography professor John Wilson, who now teaches at USC.

The study, published in 1994 in the journal Mountain Research and
Development, also concluded that wet soil erodes more than dry ground,
though the study examined only a few soil types.

In a separate but similar study, a pair of Canadian researchers at the
University of Guelph in Ontario hiked and biked 500 times across four plots,
each a meter long, in Boyne Valley Provincial Park, then counted the plant
stems and plant species and measured the soil displacement in the affected
ground. They found that both activities eliminated plants on the path and
increased the amount of upturned soil by 54%. (The study only examined bikes
and hikers moving downhill on dry trails in deciduous forest.) The findings,
published in 2001 in the journal Environmental Management, show "that at a
similar intensity of activity, the short-term impacts of mountain biking and
hiking may not differ greatly."

But hiking advocates say those studies don't consider the extended range of
bikes. "If a mountain bike travels 50 miles in a day, and hikers travel only
five miles, the destruction caused by bikes is 10 times greater," said
Michael Vandeman, a San Francisco hiker who lobbies to close trails to
cyclists.

Real forest damage, say hiking and biking enthusiasts as well as experts, is
caused by poorly designed trails.

National Park Service officials say they can build lots of trails, but they
all erode in time. "Once rainwater begins following a rut created by a
trail, the soil will eventually become damaged," said Steve Griswold, a
trail builder at the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. "If a trail is
designed properly, no one group will do more damage."

Off-path destruction is another concern. It occurs when hikers and riders
strike out to form new routes or find sites not connected by trail. Said
Gluck of American Trails: "A good trail must anticipate what people want. If
there aren't any trails leading to a fantastic overlook, hikers will create
their own. If signs don't clearly communicate where trails lead, people will
cross back and forth."

Outdoors users often hit the trail with strikingly different expectations of
what fun is all about. Social scientists say those hopes lie at the root of
conflicts.

U.S. Forest Service studies show that whereas hikers frequently seek
tranquillity, mountain bikers want adrenaline. Hikers polled in the Los
Padres National Forest in 1989 said they objected to mountain bikers because
they ride too fast, have difficulty stopping on blind corners and startle
equestrians and hikers.

"Bikes are silent and fast," said Jim Absher, a social scientist with the
Forest Service. "If you've ever experienced someone roaring around a corner
at 30 mph, it's terrifying. That feeling is the opposite of what hikers want
from a forest trail."

Back at the Mulholland trail in the Santa Monica Mountains, Frapton dittoed
that. "I come here to relax, but it's impossible with all the bikes
constantly zipping past," he said. "These paths were built for hiking."

But a mountain biker prepping his bike nearby disagreed. He said cyclists
are not unmindful of hikers.

"I always make it a point to be courteous to hikers," said Jerry Flattery,
48, of Los Angeles, sitting atop his silver mountain bike. "There's more
bikers out here than hikers. If we use it more, why shouldn't it be ours?"

Despite safety concerns, accidents seem rare. A 1993 study of 40 Forest
Service managers found that only one hiker had been injured by a mountain
bike in the previous year.

Another federal survey of 1,400 users in California's Los Padres National
Forest in 1989 found that only 15 bike and hiker encounters were potentially
harmful, and the only accident involved bikes colliding with each other
when riders tried to avoid a hiker.

To prevent conflict, officials and trail users call for more paths to
separate bikes, horses and hikers.

"If I want to encourage bikers to go one direction and hikers another, signs
are ineffective," said Joey Klein, a trail building specialist with the
International Mountain Bike Assn. "Instead, I'll have the trail go through
sand. Bikers hate sand, but hikers love it."

Klein designed a Black Canyon trail in Prescott National Forest in Arizona
with water crossings that attract equestrians and dog walkers but deter
bikers.

The goal, Klein said, is to create trails that encourage users to move at
the same speed like the rocky paths around Fruita, Colo., that force
bikers and hikers to slow down.

"Hikers want to get to the summit as fast as possible, but bikers don't care
about vistas," Klein said. "Instead, they want hills that feel like a roller
coaster."



I think a lot of these problems are caused because the U.S. is becoming overpopulated in a lot of areas (something foreign here). More and more people are wanting to use a relatively small area for recreation.
I think the tree huggers spreading misinformation and bad stereotypes about many users (ie. wheelers) under the guise of "We care about the environment and all the creatures in it (of course excluding humans who they feel are mostly evil and bad for the ecosystem).
Up here in the GREAT WHITE NORTH we have such a vast underpopulated country that the tree huggers don't need to try and run/control our public lands because we have so much of it. I am sure it will become a bigger issue in the future but we are relatively safe for now (unless you guys invade us and turn Canada into the worlds largest off road park).
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecar95
(unless you guys invade us and turn Canada into the worlds largest off road park).
Hey, now theres an idea!

Quote:
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Quote:
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hytenor
Hey, now theres an idea!
Just remember, don't eat yellow snow, and there is no TONIC like Canadian CHRONIC, LMAO.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecar95
Just remember, don't eat yellow snow, and there is no TONIC like Canadian CHRONIC, LMAO.
actually, I like Clive Cussler's version of Canadian history, hee, hee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
Yeah, well, I'm just glad I snagged a few Spector cans before EPA converted them to Sphincters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma Jake View Post
Lube may be your best friend (depending on location).
'00 Excab Tacoma, 2.7, 5sp with a Bunch-o-mods
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hytenor
actually, I like Clive Cussler's version of Canadian history, hee, hee.
Actually I have never heard of him, does his version consist of ice melting and then freezing again a couple months later, if so its true?
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecar95
Actually I have never heard of him, does his version consist of ice melting and then freezing again a couple months later, if so its true?
"Night Probe!", 1981
Dirk Pitt finds the North American Treaty

the new movie, "Sahara" is based on a Cussler book of the same title as was "Raise the Titanic".

He's still writing books, wild adventure/techno-thriller type stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
Yeah, well, I'm just glad I snagged a few Spector cans before EPA converted them to Sphincters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma Jake View Post
Lube may be your best friend (depending on location).
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 10:20 PM
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there should be a law against quoting a 20+ paragraph post.
and,hell yeah,lets wheel Canada.

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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTO(dale)
there should be a law against quoting a 20+ paragraph post.
and,hell yeah,lets wheel Canada.
check out white knight
http://www.whiteknight.ca/base.htm Weee!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
Yeah, well, I'm just glad I snagged a few Spector cans before EPA converted them to Sphincters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma Jake View Post
Lube may be your best friend (depending on location).
'00 Excab Tacoma, 2.7, 5sp with a Bunch-o-mods
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-04-2005, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTO(dale)
there should be a law against quoting a 20+ paragraph post.
and,hell yeah,lets wheel Canada.
Just driving here on the roads in the winter is more than a lot of folks can handle.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecar95
Just driving here on the roads in the winter is more than a lot of folks can handle.

Exactly!!....Especially Toronto, where people panic @ the slightest hint that it might rain...I've seen cars swerve in a panic from someone's windshield washer overspray......

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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 04:25 PM
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I stopped reading after I read the words "wet ground erodes faster than dry ground"...it took me almost 10 mins to stop laughing

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Sarchasm: The gulf that exists between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
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