Recent 3 link SAS... have some questions - TTORA Forum
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Recent 3 link SAS... have some questions

Been a while since I've posted, but here goes,

I recently had a Diamond axle and 4 Wheel Underground 3 link SAS kit installed. Still working out the bugs but the rear driveline vibes are out of control.

Prior to the install, my Inch Worm 4.7 Lefty and OEM 8.4 rear w/ ARB 5.29 equipped locker was flawless, all worked great.

The guy that did the work didn't get the T-case output flange angle as he installed a temporary cross member. I drove it home and man, what a ride that was. My dentist loves me at the moment.

Does anybody with a stock regular cab Prerunner w/ 2.7 & auto trans know what the OEM output flange angle should be?

Thanks in advance.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 06:44 PM
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The transfer case output angle shouldn't change.
The driveline should be restively level and the engine mounts shouldn't be stressed.
The rear pinion angle is what should be changed to help correct for the additional lift.

99 Single Cab 2.7. Finally SAS'd and sitting on full width Toyota axles.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Scuba... still diggin' going through your build!

At bit of history:

When I had the A340F trans rebuilt, the Inch Worm T-case was installed, the drive shaft was built to fit. At that point, I had zero issues. All of this while retaining the OEM cross member.

Now, the 3 link brackets take place of the complete OEM cross member.

As I've attempted to replicate the new self made cross member, I am struggling with the correct angle on the output flange. The motor mounts haven't change nor has the rear axle.

If I had the OEM t-case angle numbers, I can build to that and all should be good.

Am I missing something?

Thanks for the reply.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 07:34 AM
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I agree with what Scuba said.

After removing the old cross member and placing a temporary one, how much do you think that changed the tcase's output angle realistically speaking? What did you do for your rear suspension? What kind of springs? How is it set up? (longer aftermarket shackles, blocks, shims to correct pinion angle, etc)

1999 Reg Cab, 2.7, 5 spd

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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OK... thanks for the replies first of all.
2nd, here is a bit of history which will bring you to where I am today:

2.5 years, I had an A340F trans rebuilt and at the same time, an Inch Worm 4.7 Lefty installed along with the trans. No front driveshaft installed. The rear driveshaft was built to order and off I went, zero issues.

The rear has a Deaver 8 pack set of leafs which was on prior to the trans & T-case install. Again, no issues, before or after.

All has been affected by the removal of the OEM trans cross member as the rear has not changed.

One change worthy of note, I am now using the trans mount location on the T-case instead of the adapter between the T-case and trans.

Do you think there is where the change could be?

Thanks for tuning in.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 08:10 PM
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If you changed the height at all of the tcase and trans, it will change the angle of the output, and it will change the angle of the driveline, and throw off the u joint angles.

What's probably happening is the rear pinion angle is not equal to the rear tcase output.

Just put a shim on the leaf pack to get the angles back to canceling out and you're okay (this is assuming you're not running a cv shaft, which in this case, the rear pinion angle is set to 0)

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 09:37 PM
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Richie, do you have any photos of the 4Wheel Underground system?

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEJASYOTA View Post
Richie, do you have any photos of the 4Wheel Underground system?
I have quite a few photos. What in particular do you want to see?

Phil,
The drive shaft has a Cardan just after the output flange on the T-case. Also, it has a slip joint too. The rear pinion angle has never been changed.

Thanks for the replies.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 10:15 AM
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So your ujoint operating angle needs to be 0 degrees. By raising or lowering the tcase height, you also change the pinion end operating angle.

Because you have a cv, the rear ujoint angle needs to be 0. You measure this by measuring the pining flange angle, and subtracting it from the angle of the driveline. It should equal 90.

Another problem is the u joints could be out of phase. If the rear slip was taken off and not slipped back exactly the ssme, it's out of phase.

https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY

Watch the video. It will explain why angles are so important. Since you have a cv, you are essentially working with just 1 ujoint, so having the operating angle at 0 is critical.

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Phil,

Thanks for the link. Very informative. I will make the adjustments tomorrow.

Tejas,
I will post some pics shortly.

Thanks for the replies.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Here are the usual 3 link pics... no different than the many others but... this one is mine. I never thought the day would come.
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'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Here are some with the CO's in place. I need to replace several brake lines and remove the entire ABS system. The module takes up the space where my ARB 'twin' compressor will soon reside. The shock tower on the PS is now where it once was.

Many little things to correct but it's getting closer.
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'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 03:51 PM
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I also forgot to add. With leafs on the rear and no trac bar, the pinion will rotate up under load. If you point the pinion downwards from 0 by 1 or 2 degrees, when you're moving and under power, the pinion will rotate up to a 0 degree working angle

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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... I forgot to add, the current frame height is @ 20".

I will make the adjustments tomorrow and set it @ 21".

Thanks for tuning in.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 08:15 PM
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Sound like they've got you on a good track.
One thing I'll add.. Make sure the slip joint on the rear shaft isn't too far extended at ride height. I once added an axle relocation plate to push my axle back 3/4" or 1" (don't remember which) to center the rear end in the wheel well. After roughly 30k miles, it wore out the slip joint splines because it was too far extended.

99 Single Cab 2.7. Finally SAS'd and sitting on full width Toyota axles.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba View Post
Sound like they've got you on a good track.
One thing I'll add.. Make sure the slip joint on the rear shaft isn't too far extended at ride height. I once added an axle relocation plate to push my axle back 3/4" or 1" (don't remember which) to center the rear end in the wheel well. After roughly 30k miles, it wore out the slip joint splines because it was too far extended.
Good point, thanks.

I'll have this remedied later this morning.

Thanks for the tips guys.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorcalPR View Post
So your ujoint operating angle needs to be 0 degrees. By raising or lowering the tcase height, you also change the pinion end operating angle.

Because you have a cv, the rear ujoint angle needs to be 0. You measure this by measuring the pining flange angle, and subtracting it from the angle of the driveline. It should equal 90.

Another problem is the u joints could be out of phase. If the rear slip was taken off and not slipped back exactly the ssme, it's out of phase.

https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY

Watch the video. It will explain why angles are so important. Since you have a cv, you are essentially working with just 1 ujoint, so having the operating angle at 0 is critical.

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Phil,
My driveshaft angle is 13 degrees and my pinion flange is 77, totaling 90, is that what you meant?

The T-case flange is close to 90 degrees now. It still vibrates. I have 5/16" spacers on each side of the cross member.

Do those numbers work or am I missing something?

Thanks.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 02:58 PM
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Doh, yeah you're okay there.

So you have a carrier bearing support or is it a one piece with a cv at the tcase end?

I'd check that the u joints are in phase. Even one tooth off on the slip yoke will throw the u joints out of alignment and they will not be in phase. It will vibrate horribly with the u joints out of phase

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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No carrier bearing, one piece w/ slip.

The u-joints appear to be in phase. I didn't measure or check it but I may just do that now.

Thanks.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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So an update is in order:

In attempting to find the correct cross member angle, I used washers to incrementally find the sweet spot. I was getting burned out on this so I took it to MIT in El Cajon.

Turns out, I was one washer off on each side of the cross member and this entire time trying to figure this out, junked the rear bearing in the Lefty.

All sorted now. No vibe sso I'm good to go on this.

Question for the 3 link guys... when I back up from a parking spot, I get a loud popping noise. When I begin going forward, It repeats itself. Annoying for sure.

I've checked everything underneath and found the panhard bar does hit the upper link bracket that is welded to the axle. As it is on HEIMS, it does pivot quite a bit. Do you think that may be the sound I'm hearing? I can't prove it which is why I ask.

I'm thinking I will install either a Teflon washer or steel between the HEIM in the inside of the bracket to keep it from rolling back & forth.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

'03 Reg Cab Pre-runner step-side. 3 link, Diamond axle, F&R ARB's w/ 5.29 Yukons, ARB twin compressor, Inchworm 4.7 Lefty, 285/75/16 General Grabber A/T2's, Warn M8000S, Shrockworks front bumper, custom rear bumper, custom sliders that hold air.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-08-2016, 03:17 PM
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Ritchie,

I'm about to 3 link mine as well. Just curious of what the lower and upper link lengths you're running. Also what is the separation at the axle and frame (upper vs lower of course).

I'm trying to line mine out via the 3 link calculator and I'm coming up with some wayyyy whack figures on my anti squat %. The only way I can get it close to correct is by using super long links...which I'm not a fan of...

Just curious.

Free bump to help figure out your issue...don't mean to hi jack.

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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 11:43 AM
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Ritchie,

I'm about to 3 link mine as well. Just curious of what the lower and upper link lengths you're running. Also what is the separation at the axle and frame (upper vs lower of course).

I'm trying to line mine out via the 3 link calculator and I'm coming up with some wayyyy whack figures on my anti squat %. The only way I can get it close to correct is by using super long links...which I'm not a fan of...

Just curious.

Free bump to help figure out your issue...don't mean to hi jack.
Those link calculators will give you a headache. Get the numbers that you want in an ideal world first; then everything after that is a compromise from there

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3-link SAS, d60/14b combo, 40" Nittos, spd Atlas 5.0 gears.


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Sometimes the one guy at the urinals with the biggest dick, isn't the ONE with the easiest aim. so in other words, don't piss away your performance thinking biggest is best for this situation! cuz it ain't
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