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DudeMan 07-19-2012 10:46 AM

Lefty Or Duals
 
Ok...so I started a similar thread on the main page. Jtaco1 chimed in and offered his advice. Maybe some others here could chime in.

I was initially thinking of saving up for a lefty. Mainly because of ease of installation and minimal mods to floor board. I'm not an extreme wheeler but do hit some knarley trails. Thought the 4.7's lefty would suffice me. I know I could have a dual set-up a bit cheaper than a lefty...but not so sure I'll need all those gear options. And I'm not to keen on messing with the driveshafts and stuff at this point. It's still too new :D

Anyhow...just posting cause I'm undecided and just curious of what you guys think.

Thanks

86 toy 07-19-2012 03:39 PM

i say duals because i only have 1 4.7 case in my truck and it sucks on access roads and when you need to back up.. just my personal experiance and :2cents:

DudeMan 07-19-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86 toy (Post 2309623)
i say duals because i only have 1 4.7 case in my truck and it sucks on access roads and when you need to back up.. just my personal experiance and :2cents:

Good to know. What's the deal with backing up? Slow?

I could see how it could suck on access roads...cause initially I thought you lose shift on the fly. But on marlins site it mentions that those with ADD, it can be wired so that you don't loose shift on the fly. Which is a nice feature.

Also, can more gears be added behind the lefty at a later date if need be?

jtaco1 07-19-2012 08:31 PM

A stock Lefty would be the same as you have now, by adding the 4.7 gears you effectively double your low range. Yes backing up is slow to say the least and like was said can limit your gear selection for going down access roads and whatnot. Only way to add more gearing to a lefty would be dual cases.

With stock dual cases, you maintain your current low range, but when in double low it is like having the 4.7 gears that you would have with a Lefty. With duals you can go one step further and put 4.7 gears in your crawl box. This can lead to strength issues.

For all around drivability and the wheeling you do a dual case setup with stock gears would be perfect.

86 toy 07-19-2012 08:31 PM

yes backing up is slow, even at 6 grand :rolleyes:..
it sucks on access roads because of speed.. i am frequently in 4th and 5th gear to keep up and going back to high range sucks because you have to come to a complete stop to shift it so with dual cases you have the stock low range that you could run most of the time and lock the other in when you get to the harder stuff..
i'm pretty sure once you add a lefty all you would need to do duals is a dual case adapter and a toyota crawl box to put between your transmission and lefty case because you will already have the transmission adapter to run the toyota gear drive t case.. then you would have the ultimate crawler with a selection of 2.28, 4.7 or 6.98 :cool:

surfishjoe 07-20-2012 06:37 AM

Bump for a good thread Dudeman, I'm interested in learning more about dual cases etc.

jtaco1 07-20-2012 07:12 AM

Fom looking at Inchworm's website it you order the Lefty, either already built or just the plate to build it yourself it make a passenger drop gear driven t-case into a driver drop t-case adn that is it. You would still need to purchase the plate adapter to mate your current transmission to the gear driven t-case. I will use Trail Gear 4.7 gears for this comparison as they are about $100 less in cost. Here would be the cost break down.

Pre-Built Lefty ($1,995), plate adapter ($350), 4.7 gears ($442), and Core Charge ($250) - $3,037

(May be more if they charge to install the gears, plus this price includes the core charge of $250 for a gear driven t-case that you either pay or pay to send a good unit, that you purchase locally, back to them to use on the next build. There is also shipping not included)

Dual case setup from Inchworm pre-built would require drive shafts and a crossmember. No need for 4.7 gears with this setup as you are approximately where you are with the geared Lefty.

Pre-Built dual case setup ($1,150), Trail Gear Tacoma Dual Crossmember ($348), and driveshafts ($400) - $1,898 (Again there would be shipping on top of this.)

Build it yourself and with friends, source a gear driven t-case would look like this.

Lefty Gear Driven t-case ($100), Lefty adapter ($1,124), plate adapter ($350), and 4.7 gears ($442) - $2,016 (Again there would be shipping on top of this.)

Dual Cases Gear Driven t-case ($100), plate adapter ($350), dual case adapter ($650), Trail Gear Tacoma Dual Crossmember ($348), and driveshafts ($400) - $1,848 (Again there would be shipping on top of this.)

Based on those numbers and for simplicity I would fork out the extra $50 and go with a pre-built case from Inchworm. This setup would give you the best gear selection and is much cheaper than a Lefty, pre-built or not.

You can also look at Trail Gear and Marlin for similar packages,

Trail Gear dual t-cases - Gear Driven t-case ($100), dual case adapter package ($566), Trail Gear Tacoma Dual Crossmember ($348), and driveshafts ($400) - $1,414 (Again there would be shipping on top of this.)

This option looks even better money wise, but you would have to put it together.

Marlin is currently out of stock and very proud of their parts.

As a side note, man am I glad I built a 1st gen 4 Runner, my duals cost me under $500 with the crossmember, even with 4.7 gears and twin stick still under a grand.

DudeMan 07-20-2012 08:15 AM

Wow...thanks JT. That's what I needed...someone to spell it out like that. I never really understood all the options till you laid it out like that.

Ok, so...to be sure I'm following this correctly.

It seems as though the best option is to purchase this (but for a 3.4 manual)
http://www.inchwormgear.com/collecti...ble-case-setup

Bolt this 2:28-1 up to the tranny (cause it seems to come with the clockable adapter) then bolt my stock t-case behind it. Buy crossmember and driveshafts and POW!!! Hit the trails??

What gear options does that set-up give me? And what kind of floor mods will need done? Also, what about shifters?

jtaco1 07-20-2012 08:52 AM

No problem, I have a little bit of time today :)

You got it, unbolt your t-case, bolt the plate, crawl box, and adapter to yout t-case and re-install with a crossmember and new shafts.

Gearing wise you retain your 4wd Hi and Lo ratios that you have currently, nothing changes until you drop the crawl box into low, then you multiply your gearing by 2.28 - nice and slow.

Now if later on down the road you feel that that is not low enough, you can add 4.7 gears to your crawl box to get even lower in double low. The issue with this is it can put a lot more stress on the Tacoma t-case and you snap your input off and are dead in the water. The fix would be another Tacoma t-case that you may snap the input off of again or going with a Left with a 23 spline chromoly input, but at that point you would be better off cutting your losses and sell the t-case setup and just put an Atlas II in.

As for floor mods, you may need to "clearance" a little with a BFH or not at all, somehow each truck is a little different. Shifter wise, the crawl box shifter will be roughly where your current t-case shift is and the t-case shift will move back to your cup holder. You could also install a twin stick setup in your t-case to gain 2wd lo. Also with setting up your t-case for twin stick, you can install a triple shifter setup that moves all of the shifter to the current position of your t-case shifter. This is what Andy did with his Tacoma and was a very nice setup that he built himself. You have lots of options as to where the shifters can go depending on how you link it and bend things.

DudeMan 07-20-2012 09:13 AM

I think that adding the 2:28 built duals would be plenty. At least for me.

Now...shifters.
With twin sticks...you have two crawl box shifters in current t-case location and stock t-case shifter in cup holder. Is this correct?

Triple shifters...you have all three in current location? That seems great but crammed. Does Andy have any pics of this?

jtaco1 07-20-2012 09:39 AM

Twin sticks go on the t-case not the crawl box. The shifter on the crawl box only controls high (1:1) gearing and lo (2.28:1) gearing. The single t-case shifter controls hi/lo and 2wd and 4wd, with the twin sticks you have the ability to be in 2wd lo range in addition to 4wd hi/lo.

With the duals, no matter if you use a single shifter or twin stick shifter, the shifter will end up at your cup holder unless relocated, such as with the tripple shifter. It could be a bit cramped I suppose. You sould have to bend them a little to clear the transmission shifter, but nothign crazy. Andy may have a picture or two as he built his from scratch - not sure if a vendor currently manufactures a tripple sifter setup for Tacomas yet.

Now if you do choose to go twin sticks on your t-case, you will have to tear the t-case down to get the interlock pin out and then reassemble. You don't really need to go with a twin stick setup, I have it but rarely use it if at all. I did it because I found a twin stick setup for cheap. You could actually wire up your ADD setup to a switch so that it would not engage when in 4wd and it would act like a twin stick with what you currently have. I think there is a writeup somewhere about it.

jtaco1 07-20-2012 10:03 AM

Also, take a look at Trail Gears website as they have two great writeups that show how to build the Tacoma dual cases. Their setup would be the cheapest route to go with building it yourself as you would just need to source the top-shift gear driven t-case and you would be set. It can only go together one way :)

Also, with the Inchworm pre-built setup, you will need to source a shifter for the crawl box as it is not included.

With the Trail Gear parts, you can also find their parts cheaper by going thorugh vendors, some even include free shipping. Also it is much cheaper to just send the adapters and hardware than an entirely built crawl box setup.

jtaco1 07-20-2012 10:07 AM

Triple shifter setup
http://img1.pirate4x4.com/forum/atta...1&d=1317100612

Start reading here about a dual case setup in a similar truck.

https://www.ttora.com/forum/showthrea...orcalpr&page=8

DudeMan 07-20-2012 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtaco1 (Post 2309777)
Twin sticks go on the t-case not the crawl box.

Oh yeah...duh :D and thanks for the pic

I don't see the need for twins. And I don't mind losing a cup holder. Unless of coarse, it's simple enough to relocate to a more desirable location. But that's not much of a concern at this point.

All this time I thought a lefty is what I wanted. But now...I see the light. ;)

Three more questions...for now :)
Driveshafts are my next concern.

1. I'm assuming those ones that trail gear sells though inchworm are the correct size for a built dual case?
2. Do I need new flange adapters or is it just straight bolt on?
3. Will they need balanced before installation?

I gotta cut away for a while. I read up on those links.

Thanks again

86 toy 07-20-2012 10:30 AM

scott (fishbone) has the inchworm tacoma dual case setup and also has the tripple shifter.. you can look at his at takeover;)

86 toy 07-20-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan (Post 2309789)
Driveshafts are my next concern.

1. I'm assuming those ones that trail gear sells though inchworm are the correct size for a built dual case?
2. Do I need new flange adapters or is it just straight bolt on?
3. Will they need balanced before installation?

I gotta cut away for a while. I read up on those links.

Thanks again

I have a guy who builds my driveshafts.. you could take your original shafts and have them rebuilt and balanced to the proper length. his prices are very reasonable and he can build them out of heavy wall tubing so they take more abuse.. he charges about $150 to retube a shaft and it would be less if it was a simple cut and shorten.. let me know if your interested and i can give you his contact info

jtaco1 07-20-2012 10:46 AM

For your driveshafts, you would take your current ones and have the front shaft lengthend and the rear shaft front portion shortented by the thickness of the crawl box with adapters. I have built all of my driveshafts myself. The rear I cut down and it slipped right back into the factory yoke, as for the front it is slightly off as I didn't have the exact tube I needed and didn't take my time, but both run smooth. I've had the 88 4 Runner up to 65 on the road with no vibration.

I included $400 for shaft work to have a shop do it and it really shouldn't cost that much to have the work done and balanced - no need to have all new shafts built. If you take your time, you can do it yourself. Since you are using your existing shafts, they will bolt in without issue, assuming you measure correctly :D

Like Mark said, Scott has the Inchworm setup and that would give you a good idea of what you would be doing. You really should try to make it to Takeover :)

DudeMan 07-20-2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86 toy (Post 2309792)
scott (fishbone) has the inchworm tacoma dual case setup and also has the tripple shifter.. you can look at his at takeover;)

I wish I could make it...if for nothing else just to iron all this out. But it just ain't gonna happen. But I could at least contact scott if I have any questions.

Initially I was gonna keep the stock shafts as they are and buy new. In the event I ever have to pull the dual case and put back to stock configuration. I don't know why I would ever need to but, ya just never know.

At any rate. What ever I decide to do...it's good to know that I got some connections through you guys. It'll be a while before I pull the trigger on this stuff but it will happen. Just gotta save, save, save. :D

Again...thanks guys for your help

DudeMan 07-20-2012 12:04 PM

I tried to send Fishbone a PM but it won't let me. So...IF YOU CAN HEAR ME SCOTT, I'D LIKE TO SEE PICS OF YOUR TRIPLE STICK SETUP!!!!!! :D

Maybe that'll get him over here. :p

86 toy 07-21-2012 11:14 AM

i sent him a text..lets see if he shows up

DudeMan 07-21-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86 toy (Post 2309981)
i sent him a text..lets see if he shows up

:D Thanks man

jamarquardt22 07-21-2012 06:33 PM

I learned some stuff when I had the dials in the taco. Im one of the few that did this. I really liked inchworms old crawl box to stock t case adapter. It used stock toy bearings. Now they use marlins bearings. Marlin tends to have supply issues. Just food for thought.

I wouldn't of done a linked shifter for the tcase if I had bucket seats. Way too much work and it never worked like I really wanted. I wouldn't waste the money or time on a twin stick either

Your gearing options will be 2.28, 2.57(stock) or 5.86:1. It crawled with a 4cly 5 spd. It would be even better with a v6 and auto. It will drive through the brakes!

It's not hard to build a crawl box. You may want to try and get some used adapters.

The floor depends on how much you want to clock the rear case

surfishjoe 07-22-2012 05:12 AM

Thanks guys this is informative, I have some reading to do. Dudeman- are you running stock gears in your difs?

DudeMan 07-22-2012 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfishjoe (Post 2310083)
Thanks guys this is informative, I have some reading to do. Dudeman- are you running stock gears in your difs?

Yes I am. 4.10's

I got some thinking to do. Thanks Andy on your input. And I doubt I would go twin sticks. I don't really see the need.

Thanks guys. I'll keep this thread going as I'm sure some more questions will pop up.

DudeMan 07-23-2012 07:35 AM

So the more I read and the more horror stories I find, makes me think twice about duals and stock taco case. Seems as though some have stripped out the taco case due to short input shaft and the lack of strength that the chain driven case has compared to gear driven. It might not be that common but...I hate hearing about those horror stories.

So maybe starting out with a lefty is a better/stronger way to go...then add gears later if I need to go lower. I know the upfront cost is much more but it might save me cash in the long run. Plus it'll be a bit stronger than running the stock case. Thoughts????

Also, I can store the stock case in garage just in case I need it down the road.

Another concern: My 4.10's stock gearing is gonna be able to handle the added torque of a lefty, right? I'm not gonna need to re-gear am I? Right now I'm running 33's

jtaco1 07-23-2012 10:07 AM

There's a chance of breaking anything at any given point. You could buy the dual case setup and use your existing t-case and be fine or break it and conversely you could build a Lefty and break that as well. Boils down to what you want to do and what you want to spend. Crazy things can happen. Personally I would do the duals with your stock case, if you break the stock case see if you can locate another one and swap it in, after that go to something else such as the Lefty.

As for the gears, they will hold fine as the 4.10 gears are stronger. With 4.10 gears you transfer the stress back to the t-case, axle gearing helps to lessen the stress in the entire drivetrain. With that being said, I have a 4.10 Tacoma elocker axle in the back of my 4 Runner with dual cases and 4.7 gears - knock on wood, I haven't broken anything yet with heavy 37's.

DudeMan 07-23-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtaco1 (Post 2310281)
With that being said, I have a 4.10 Tacoma elocker axle in the back of my 4 Runner with dual cases and 4.7 gears - knock on wood, I haven't broken anything yet with heavy 37's.

You just had to say that before Takeover didn't you. Good luck to ya. :D

Anyway, I hear ya on the fact that anything can happen at any given time. Crazy things do happen.

I really appreciate all the info. I just like to gather as much info as I possibly can before making a purchase like this. I like to know everything I can and all the options before taking the plunge. Cause it's a slippery slope, this offroading shit. :D

jamarquardt22 07-23-2012 05:30 PM

Scotts got 5:1 gears in the crawlbox in front of the stock taco tcase and 37's

DudeMan 07-23-2012 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamarquardt22 (Post 2310390)
Scottsdale got 5:1 gears in the crawlbox in front of the stock taco tcase and 37's

Isn't it supposed to be the lower set of gears in the rear?

jtaco1 07-23-2012 06:17 PM

It doesn't have to be, but it is ideal with the gears in the back. Also going with a geared Lefty, you end up with the situation that Mark mentioned with gearing on access road and what not.

Your approaching or surpassing the cost of and Atlas II transfer case with a geared Lefty with chromoly parts. I highly doubt you would break an Atlas.


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