TTORA Forum banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Are there camshaft options for the 3.4L 5VZFE engine? I would think that would be an easy way to begin opening up the potential of the engine without selling a minor organ for a blower and fuel mods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I found this 5FVZE build-up: http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399059

He mentions camshafts by "S2S", but a google search turned up zilch.

$1K seems a bit much... that's $250 per camshaft... but who knows.

He does mention in that thread that with different cams, it's "an entirely different beast".

I don't see why I can't gain some hp/topend, without sacrificing significant torque. I do occasionally tow my project car. Still, DOHC heads means we have both "in" and "out" to play with.

Even if it IS nearing $1K, it may be worth i depending on the choice of lift and duration.

Can someone tell me the stock intake lift/duration, and exhaust lift/duration?
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
20,355 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
S2S is Sea2sky tuning outside of Vancouver, BC. He is a good guy and is very knowledgeable about the 5vz. Has forged piston, rods, oversize high flow valves, does head porting and polishing, N/A and F/I cams, fuel managment - pretty much everything you need for the long block.

www.sea2skytuning.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
S2S is Sea2sky tuning outside of Vancouver, BC. He is a good guy and is very knowledgeable about the 5vz. Has forged piston, rods, oversize high flow valves, does head porting and polishing, N/A and F/I cams, fuel managment - pretty much everything you need for the long block.

www.sea2skytuning.com
I talked to LC Engineering and told them I wanted a torque beast and they were all, " Let us check into it and we'll get back to you" Four months ago. WTF? I want cams but am unwilling to sacrifice torque. What a PITA to replace all the cams, springs and set valve lash re tune the computer and only for a grand. I want em' but DAMN.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Can someone get me the stock cam profile specs?

It sounds like the S2S cam solution includes shims that deal with the valvetrain needs. They do offer longer valves, but it sounds like they intended them for more agressive Stage 2 and 3 camshafts. You can use them instead of shims, but I'm accepting their testimony that the shims are relatively failureless.

As far as torque vs. horsepower goes -- Honestly I don't think we need to sacrifice as much torque as you're worried about, tarantulaman. Cam profiles offer a lot of tunability, and the right grind can yield more topend without sacrificing decent grunt. I'm leaning towards Sea2Sky after checking out their website.

From the Sea2Sky website:

5vz-fe Stage I Cam Regrinds

Cam Specs: 258° Duration .340" Lift
Power band: 1000-6000rpm

At first this camset was designed for Supercharged 5vz-fe's but after some testing we found that this grind helped out even when N/A or turbo!

When boosted these cams help the engine out in that you need less boost to make the same amount of hp as if you were running higher boost (IE: TRD SC 9psi pre cam will make the same amount of power at 7psi POST-CAM) this in turn puts less stress on the motor and supercharger while still making the power you want!

When running these cams while N/A there is no noticeable power fall off at 4k rpm as there was before the cams were in place which makes for a bit more enjoyable ride. As far as HP#'s go, we have not had a chance to get a new dyno run in but hope to do so in the near future.

Price: $650.00


It's another $300 if you don't send yours in. So $950 without core. But that's significant for me, because I have two vehicles, and can afford the downtime to take out my cams and send them in. So for $650 I can get them reground.

This is what I needed to know. I still want someone to provide me the stock cam specs, either here or I will email Sea2Sky about it. But I am pretty sure that the cams on this engine are key to a quick power gain, and if that's true, $650 isn't bad for four.

I'll wait until they've dyno'd and done some more testing, because I'm not in a hurry, but hopefully by spring I will have some kind of solution for camshaft replacement. I am betting some of you are underestimating how much a cam profile can hamper or bolster engine performance, especially when talking about higher tolerance DOHC engines.

I'll check out LC next, but so far the idea of regrinding my current ones and saving three billz is appealing.

Edit: I found this thread stating that 3VZ-FE camry cams are casr from the same stock as the 5VZ-FE 3.4L cams. Anyone looking for a broader powerband might want to read this thread. There's no results yet but it has some promising info on the two:

http://www.yotatech.com/f2/3vz-fe-camry-cams-5vz-fe-3-4l-71625/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Can someone get me the stock cam profile specs?

It sounds like the S2S cam solution includes shims that deal with the valvetrain needs. They do offer longer valves, but it sounds like they intended them for more agressive Stage 2 and 3 camshafts. You can use them instead of shims, but I'm accepting their testimony that the shims are relatively failureless.
As far as torque vs. horsepower goes -- Honestly I don't think we need to sacrifice as much torque as you're worried about, tarantulaman. Cam profiles offer a lot of tunability, and the right grind can yield more topend without sacrificing decent grunt. I'm leaning towards Sea2Sky after checking out their website.

From the Sea2Sky website:

5vz-fe Stage I Cam Regrinds

Cam Specs: 258° Duration .340" Lift
Power band: 1000-6000rpm

At first this camset was designed for Supercharged 5vz-fe's but after some testing we found that this grind helped out even when N/A or turbo!

When boosted these cams help the engine out in that you need less boost to make the same amount of hp as if you were running higher boost (IE: TRD SC 9psi pre cam will make the same amount of power at 7psi POST-CAM) this in turn puts less stress on the motor and supercharger while still making the power you want!

When running these cams while N/A there is no noticeable power fall off at 4k rpm as there was before the cams were in place which makes for a bit more enjoyable ride. As far as HP#'s go, we have not had a chance to get a new dyno run in but hope to do so in the near future.

Price: $650.00


It's another $300 if you don't send yours in. So $950 without core. But that's significant for me, because I have two vehicles, and can afford the downtime to take out my cams and send them in. So for $650 I can get them reground.

This is what I needed to know. I still want someone to provide me the stock cam specs, either here or I will email Sea2Sky about it. But I am pretty sure that the cams on this engine are key to a quick power gain, and if that's true, $650 isn't bad for four.

I'll wait until they've dyno'd and done some more testing, because I'm not in a hurry, but hopefully by spring I will have some kind of solution for camshaft replacement. I am betting some of you are underestimating how much a cam profile can hamper or bolster engine performance, especially when talking about higher tolerance DOHC engines.

I'll check out LC next, but so far the idea of regrinding my current ones and saving three billz is appealing.

Edit: I found this thread stating that 3VZ-FE camry cams are casr from the same stock as the 5VZ-FE 3.4L cams. Anyone looking for a broader powerband might want to read this thread. There's no results yet but it has some promising info on the two:

http://www.yotatech.com/f2/3vz-fe-camry-cams-5vz-fe-3-4l-71625/
After talking this stuff over with some guys who REALLY know their stuff, I will tell you to RUN LIKE HELL from a regrind cam for a taco. Once you lose your baseline once reground, the whole thing becomes a mess. Get yourself some cams that were rewelded, then ground to spec. If you get cams from Webcam, or LC, you won't have that issue. And $1000 is a decent price for 4 cams. As for longer valves, shim buckets and such, these are all band-aids for the problem. Once you start jinking with the heads, either get them done by a PRO the first time, or suffer from expensive reworks time and again. My F.I.L. has some new info for my motor, as he has been searching. There is a good bit of power to be had in there, but the upper limit while still passing smog on a DD is about a 40-50hp net. And, FYI, I rode some V4 Hondas with a lot of different cams in them. Few made the gains we thought they would, and most cost us a lot of power in the middle for the bump on top. And, the same issues with the regrinds. Valves had to be sunk very deep in the heads, lots of combustion chamber reshaping work. No, they are not the same motors. But, they were 4 cam engines, and I got to see what a pain in the ass it was getting it all set up properly. If you use the milder cam from LC, you can still pass smog. You won't need too much tuning. The hotter cam will need stand alone engine management, and no more smog once you do all the upgrades to make the power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,222 Posts
I wouldn't put regrinds in any engine of mine... That's just me. LCE is top notch high quality stuff, you're gonna pay a premium for the best you can get.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
776 Posts
I agree. I installed crower cams in my old 1990 CRX, I had a Huge problem tuning them ( crower 404's - race N/A cam) and had to pay to get it done. I was insanely happy with the overall gain's ( made 152whp after, 122 before with a few other mods) and had a HUGE topend increase. That being said, I lost all my driveability. My idle was so irratic I would idle between 2000 RPM and 500RPM, and occationally the car would die at the lights.

I ended up settling with a lower tune, for 147WHP that could be more street driven.

Do your research before hand, buy TOP quality product or you are asking for a world of hurt. Heads/Valvetrain are definately not something to be played with lightly, they can seriously effect you trucks driveability to the point of annoyance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Well, I know that Honda is one of the few automakers that has very tight tolerances in tuning, especially cams, so what was said about that doesn't surprize me.

But this concern about regrinds... as far as I know, a regrind *does* use welded-on material before a new profile is ground out of it, and I wasn't aware there was any other way to do it (but I could be wrong of course). The two regrinds I had in other cars were both with welded on material. I'll be happy to get in touch with Sea2Sky and ask more questions, because from the looks of things, the guy has much experience with this engine. I don't understand why the 5VZFE is any more or less tolerant of a regrind cam than another engine. As far as the shims go, Sea2Sky has this to say:

Sea2Sky said:
These cams are REGRINDS so valve clearances must be checked and adjusted accordingly! We include a set of small spacers that fit between the lifter and the shim itself which boosts the size of the shim. This reduces the number of new shims that are needed to make the cams work. These spacers have been tested in many vehicles over the past 10years and not once has these spacers caused a shim to shoot out and destroy a head. Of course you have to make sure that the clearances are within factory specs.

Check the support section in the future for more information regarding installing these cams with the spacers.
Short of calling him a liar, the testimony is good enough for me. Again, this is a Stage 1 cam, nothing radical.

Returning to the Honda comment, I acknowledge what was said that it's a different manufacturer. But the key here is that the 5VZFE has components in it that were chosen for towing and grunt, and not performance, so where other engines might see only a marginal gain, THIS engine will see a big one.

And on that note, I'm bringing up again the 3VZFE Camry camshaft idea. That isn't a regrind. They are ground out of the same castings as the 5VZFE cams. Both engines have identical firing orders, and the lobes are apparently oriented in the same way. A little bit of torque would be traded in for a much broader powerband.

These cams would come from a 94+ 3VZFE Camry engine. Someone did a rough calculation and the estimation is ~226bhp and possibly ~230lb-ft.

This was legwork done by some V6 Mr2 guys on the link I provided above. If it does indeed have some merit to it, this would be cheap and easy, a direct swap.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble or eventual flames here, but it just *seems* like some of you (not all of you) really don't have an interest in camshafts as a performance option, while others have only a mild interest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Returning to the Honda comment, I acknowledge what was said that it's a different manufacturer. But the key here is that the 5VZFE has components in it that were chosen for towing and grunt, and not performance, so where other engines might see only a marginal gain, THIS engine will see a big one.

And on that note, I'm bringing up again the 3VZFE Camry camshaft idea. That isn't a regrind. They are ground out of the same castings as the 5VZFE cams. Both engines have identical firing orders, and the lobes are apparently oriented in the same way. A little bit of torque would be traded in for a much broader powerband.

These cams would come from a 94+ 3VZFE Camry engine. Someone did a rough calculation and the estimation is ~226bhp and possibly ~230lb-ft.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble or eventual flames here, but it just *seems* like some of you (not all of you) really don't have an interest in camshafts as a performance option, while others have only a mild interest.
Arro, most guys don't bothewr with cams because you will be trading one thing for another. As for power gains, just putting more air into the motor does not necessarily help. It takes a lot of work to get it right. Most guys choose the S/C because all the tuning is with a chip afterwards, not pulling heads time after time. I was warned by 2 TRD motor builders( My F.I.L. works there as an engine builder..) that many of the cams guys used were just regrinds, and not a ground up rebuilt cam. If they change it so much as to need different length valves and shims, you had better be prepared to spend lots of time changing where a lot of components fit, and there is no more interchangability if something breaks.... you have to get the same trick stuff all over again, and start over. And as for the power quote, that sounds pretty reasonable, and a still driveable motor. Please post linky to the info for the 3fz cams. Paul.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Arro, most guys don't bothewr with cams because you will be trading one thing for another. As for power gains, just putting more air into the motor does not necessarily help. It takes a lot of work to get it right. Most guys choose the S/C because all the tuning is with a chip afterwards, not pulling heads time after time. I was warned by 2 TRD motor builders( My F.I.L. works there as an engine builder..) that many of the cams guys used were just regrinds, and not a ground up rebuilt cam. If they change it so much as to need different length valves and shims, you had better be prepared to spend lots of time changing where a lot of components fit, and there is no more interchangability if something breaks.... you have to get the same trick stuff all over again, and start over. And as for the power quote, that sounds pretty reasonable, and a still driveable motor. Please post linky to the info for the 3fz cams. Paul.
All sounds pretty interesting, I would be very interested in how this all plays out. I have a supercharger looking at me hard from my workbench saying let's go but I am curious about this cam thing if it really will produce 20-50 DAMN! Then add a supercharger Double DAMN! It just sounds like too much trouble. The 3RZ cam thing is fetching though isn't it. You are saying just pick up some 3RZ cams from a junkyard, clean them up of course, set lash and go? Lose some bottom end and gain a bunch up top? With the supercharger on I could afford to lose a little on the bottom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Ask and you shall receive, my friends:

http://www.yotatech.com/f2/3vz-fe-camry-cams-5vz-fe-3-4l-71625/

After reading the last couple posts, I'm honestly leaning towards the Camry cams. I do understand that with torque vs. horsepower it's a give and take, but from what I can tell from that thread I posted just now, it'll be a little torque for a lot broader of a powerband.

I'd be willing to try it for everyone, if I could get a line on a wrecker who has them or the engine.

I'd even dyno before and after, which would be perfect since I basically have NO performance tuning mods whatsoever, so I'd be a great candidate for a testbed. Hmmm, maybe I can hit you all up for a "help Arro get some Camry cams" fundraiser? LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
All sounds pretty interesting, I would be very interested in how this all plays out. I have a supercharger looking at me hard from my workbench saying let's go but I am curious about this cam thing if it really will produce 20-50 DAMN! Then add a supercharger Double DAMN! It just sounds like too much trouble. The 3RZ cam thing is fetching though isn't it. You are saying just pick up some 3RZ cams from a junkyard, clean them up of course, set lash and go? Lose some bottom end and gain a bunch up top? With the supercharger on I could afford to lose a little on the bottom.
Supercharger plus cams= Bring checkbook for new bottom end!!! That would add a LOT of stress on the stock pistons, and especially the rods. Better to build up to hell with that kind of added on power. Otherwise, it probably won't last too long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Arro, the power gains he pointed were linear and were a straigt multiplication on DISPLACEMENT. So, though the power numbers are similar to what we expect with my motor, they are not really indicitave of what cams could do. Honestly, after looking at the valve seat area, the ends of the ports, and the combustion chamber, there is 20-30hp in the heads with the stock cams and valves. We can get a ton more flow with things just the way they are, and a porting tool. The issue is we will already start to need more fuel for this, so an AFR adjuster, and possibly an O2 compensator will have to be part of the equation. Hopefully, we will still hit smogable limits for the '01 taco.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
...but from the looks of it, you do indeed think the Camry idea has some merit...?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
...but from the looks of it, you do indeed think the Camry idea has some merit...?
Yes, I think it might be an improvement. I wonder if you get the right shop, with an engine dyno, if you could run it with Camry cams and see what you'd get. It would be easier than installing it into the truck, and finding out it was not a great idea. I would also wonder about the cams themselves. If they are used, they would have to be in good condition, and hopefully pretty cheap. If camry cams are $400 used, I would spend the extra $450 to get new cams, with some very specific bumps installed on them. Swapping cams on a 4 cam motor takes some time, with all the shim work. And you know, time is money...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Another thought Arro. It would be great to get dyno runs before and after, to look at torque curve more than anything else. On many of the bikes I rode, we would see 30-50hp increases from stock to built completely. Many times, when we got upgraded cams, or changed cam timing, etc. we would see a hp gain, yet the motor would feel flat, due to torque loss. But the dyno would often show that the torque had not actually been lost; it would run about the same down low, and there would be a new torque peak, at higher RPM. So, say the mototr originally made 55ft.lb @ 6,000 RPM, and had a max HP of 110 @11,500. ( This was my supersport VFR 750) And, once built into superbike trim, we saw [email protected],000RPM. But the new peak torque was 67 ft.lb @7,700RPM, with peak hp being [email protected] 12,900 RPM. The motor would come unglued at 14,000. Regardless of the higher torque output, this motor felt flat until 8,500. It STILL pulled just as hard down low as it used to. But the breathing had changed so much, and it revved SO much quicker above 8,000, it felt like a dog from down low. This was due to moment of inertia, and a loss of intake pressure due to the long duration and very high lift on the cams. This motor never wanted to work right with 39mm carbs on it; we went DOWN to 37mm, and got much better pull on the bottom. Sometimes, less is more.... Since a truck is so much more forgiving to drive, I think it would not be such an issue to have a low end torque curve that was a little flat, so long as the thing would at least pull hard from 3,000-5,500RPM. Anything over 6000 would be gravy for a daily driver. I think for bottom end snap, you might need to funk around with flywheel weight, and timing/ fuel work. All would require a stand alone computer, so failing smog would be a forgone conclusion.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top