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The following is from GlamisDunes.com:

http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=32956

CBD After the Glamis Dunes Again!!

December 2, 2004 letter from the Center for Biological Diversity

RE: Notice of Violation of Section 4 of the Endangered Species Act Relating
to Petitions to List the Andrew's Dune Scarab Beetle and Sixteen Insects
Endemic to the Algodones Dunes

Dear Ms. Norton and Mr. Williams:

On behalf of the Center for Biological Diversity (the "Center") and pursuant
to 16 U.S.C. § 1540(g)(2), I am submitting the following 60-day notice
letter to inform you that the Center intends to sue the U.S. Department of
the Interior and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (collectively "FWS") for
violating the Endangered Species Act ("ESA"), 16 U.S.C. §§ 1531-1544. FWS
has violated the ESA by failing to take the legally-required action
concerning: (1) the petition to list the Andrew's dune scarab beetle as
endangered or threatened under the ESA; and (2) the petition to list 16
insects endemic to the Algodones Dunes, Imperial County, California as
endangered or threatened under the ESA. FWS has not issued a 90-day finding
for either petition, and has furthermore violated its duty to issue a
12-month finding for the Andrew's dune scarab beetle.

The Center submitted a petition to list the Andrew's dune scarab beetle
(Pseudocotalpa
andrewsi Hardy) on December 12, 2002. The entire known geographic range of
the Andrew's dune scarab beetle is restricted to the Algodones Dunes of
Imperial county in southeastern California and northern Baja California,
Mexico. Threats to the Andrew's dune scarab beetle include: a highly
restricted geographic range; specialized habitat needs; and historic,
ongoing, and future disturbance from heavy off-road vehicle use of the
Algodones Dunes.

On July 19, 2004, the Center submitted a petition to list the following
sixteen insects endemic to the Algodones Dunes as threatened or endangered
under the ESA: two sand wasps (Microbembex elegans Griswold and Stictiella
villegasi Bohart); two bees (Perdita algodones Timberlake and P. glamis
Timberlake); one vespid (Euparagia n. sp.); two velvet ants (Dasymutilla
nocturna Mickel and Dasymutilla imperialis Manley and Pitts); three jewel
beetles (Lepismadora algodones Velten, Prasinalia imperialis Barr, and
Algodones Agrilus harenus Nelson); two scarab beetles (Anomala hardyorum
Potts and Cyclocephala wandae); and four subspecies of Roth's dune weevil
(Trigonoscuta rothi rothi, T. r. algodones, T. r. imperialis, and T. r.
punctata). The entire known geographic range of each of these sixteen insect
species is restricted to the Algodones Dunes system of Imperial County in
southeastern California, U.S.A. and northern Baja California, Mexico. Even
within the dune system, these species are classified as rare by
entomologists who have conducted extensive surveys for insects on the
Algodones Dunes and their environs. Any activities that result in direct
mortality of individuals, as well as the general decline of plant cover and
the specific decline of their respective host plants, would threaten the
survival of these species with highly restricted geographical ranges and
highly specific habitat needs.

Congress enacted the ESA to ensure the protection and conservation of
threatened and endangered species. 16 U.S.C. § 1531(B ). The fundamental,
express purpose of this federal statute is to conserve endangered and
threatened species and the ecosystems upon which they depend. Id. To achieve
this purpose, the ESA requires FWS to list species of plants and animals
that are facing extinction as either "threatened" or "endangered." 16 U.S.C.
§ 1533(c )(1). Upon receipt of a petition to list a species, FWS has
approximately 90 days to make a finding as to whether the petition "presents
substantial scientific or commercial information indicating that the
petitioned action may be warranted." 16 U.S.C § 1533 (B )(3)(A); 50 C.F.R. §
424.14 (B )(1). Twelve months after receipt of a citizen petition, FWS must
make one of three determinations: (1) listing is not warranted; (2) listing
is warranted; or (3) listing is warranted but presently precluded by other
pending proposals for listing species, provided certain circumstances are
met. 16 U.S.C. § 1533(B )(3)(B ). If FWS determines that listing a species
is warranted, it must then promptly publish, in the Federal Register, a
proposed rule to list the species. 16 U.S.C. § 1533(B )(5).

FWS has not published a 90-day finding or a 12-month finding for the
Andrew's Dune scarab beetle despite the passage of almost 24 months since
the submission of the petition. FWS has not published a 90-day finding for
the petition to list 16 insects endemic to the Algodones Dunes despite the
passage of approximately 130 days since submission of the petition.
Consequently, FWS is in violation of section 4 of the ESA. If FWS does not
promptly correct its violations, the Center intends to file suit.

Please do not hesitate to contact me at (951) XXX-XXXX with any questions or
to notify the Center of any incomplete or erroneous information you find in
this notice letter. Thank you for your prompt attention to our concerns.
 

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Before everybody gets all upset at the CBD, there is basis for their recent letter:

Read the first post in this link:
www.americansandassociation.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16933

I received this today from Daniel Patterson as an FYI. The CBD had spotters at the ISDRA on TG weekend. This is just one of their reports to him. They are taking incursions into the closures very seriously. An ASA mass-email is in the works and follows the report.

Quote:
NOTES on the DUNES
Saturday, Nov 27, 2004

1. Fifteen Desert Survivors hiked into the dunes from near Ogilby on Ogilby Road on Saturday, November 27, 2004. We hiked four miles into the Central Closure Area from east to west.

2. A large contingent of RVs and trucks were parked right at the Closure Area's eastern boundary, forming a large camping zone within one or two hundred feet of the boundary

3. The closure signs were intact where we crossed the boundary, the requisite distance apart.

4. Signs were in view at the boundary in many distances less than 100 feet from the RVs and other camping vehicles. We observed more than one hundred quads and motorbikes drive right past the signs in the two 20-minute periods during which we were close to the boundary.

5. We observed more than two hundred vehicles driving within the Closure Area during the six hours of our hike halfway across it. Most of these were within 1 1/2 miles of the eastern boundary, though we saw wheel tracks throughout the sector that we hiked. We observed four quads at the crest of the high dunes four miles into the Closure Area.

6. We observed many instances of crushed plants that had been deliberately run over. Some of these were in the low spots in between dune crests where plants take advantage of unusual moisture. Wheel tracks were not limited to the crests of loose dune sand.

7. We were not formally challenged by any dune riders. However in several instances squads of dune riders drove close to us, showing off riding techniques and deliberately running over plants. On only a few occasions were overt attempts made to avoid us or to go in the opposite direction.

8. We observed several overflights of airplanes cruising the perimeter of the Closure Area while we were near the east boundary, but saw no law enforcement vehicles patrolling the boundary or seeking to prevent entry into the Closure. A call to the dispatcher at Cahuilla Ranger Station elicited a promise to send law enforcement out after we demanded a response, but we saw no evidence of a followup and we were not contacted further by the Ranger Station about what we had reported.

9. Our conclusion was that the law on this day was not being enforced and that large numbers of riders were in violation for not honoring the closure. The BLM has also made a mistake in allowing ORV enthusiasts to camp at the boundary where entry into the Closure Area is easy. ORVs should be restricted to the open areas near Glamis and other high-use areas, and kept away from the vicinity of the Closure Areas. The east boundary should also have a campground host with the ability to call in law enforcement and with the expertise and courage to explain the law and its consequences. This campground host should be paid out of Green Sticker money that is collected as a result of State Law designed to regulate ORVs.

For further information on our findings, contact me. I took numerous photographcs (slides) and GPS readings of locations of resource damage.

Steve Tabor
Desert Survivors



Here is the ASA mass email that will go out shortly - it is self-explanatory and sends a clear message that the CBD is looking for a reason.

Quote:
Dear Fellow Sand Enthusiast,

Recently, the ASA received a copy of an email to Linda Hansen. Linda is the BLM’s Desert District Manager and the email is from the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) – the party responsible for the lawsuit that closed 49,000 acres of the Imperial Sand Dunes.

Below is the email the CBD sent to Ms. Hansen:

Quote:
<<-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel R. Patterson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:04 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Algodones Dunes

Linda --

Many closed dunes habitat areas were badly damaged this weekend by illegal off-roading. BLM and other law enforcement were not effective at protecting habitat. It is clear BLM has not made protection of closed habitat areas a priority.

What specifically will BLM do to ensure closed areas are protected? How many stops did BLM and other law enforcement make Nov. 24-28 for closed area violations? How many citations were issued for closed area violations? Please provide a detailed response by this Wednesday.

If not effectively addressed immediately, this unacceptable bad situation may force us move for contempt against BLM and full shut down of the dunes to motor vehicles.

Thank you,

Daniel R. Patterson
Ecologist & Desert Program Director
Center for Biological Diversity

because life is good.

POB 710 Tucson Arizona 85702 USA
520.623.5252 x306 tel / 623.9797 fax
www.biologicaldiversity.org

The Center for Biological Diversity protects endangered species and wild
places through science, policy, education, citizen activism and
environmental law. Headquarters: Tucson, Arizona. Field Offices: Pinos
Altos, New Mexico; San Diego, Idyllwild and San Francisco, California;
Phoenix, Arizona; Portland, Oregon. Environmental Law Clinic: University
of Denver, Colorado. “>>


If we are to take the CBD seriously, and there is no reason not to, we must remain clear of the TEMPORARY closures until the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area (ISDRA) Recreation Area Management Plane (RAMP) is recorded and implemented.

Much of the TEMPORARY closure will be lifted at that time, and majority of other areas will be accessible through a permit system.

It is not certain that the CBD would be successful, but we don’t need another costly legal action on our hands.

Until we have our RAMP, please do everything in your power to keep from riding, and others from riding, in the TEMPORARY closures.

It can hurt us all.

The ASA



The ball is in our court. While we don't agree with the closures, they are up - period - court ordered. Acting in an irresponsible manner to voice our disgust will not accomplish anything - in fact it does not make our case: it makes a case for the CBD. Riding the closures because a person thinks they can “get away with it” undermines all the work we have done.

The fact is this: for some reason, environmentalists cherish dunes. We have to deal with that. They have been successful in closing most of the dune sets on the West Coast. We are fighting them as hard as we know how. ISDRA is the last major set: if we loose that, we might as well pack up and sell our toys for the pennies on the dollar we can get for them at that point.

Foolish behavior will not help us in the fight - we need to be intelligent foes in this battle. I, personally, see that we can be successful - that is why I, and other close associates, have devoted the last 6 years of our lives to this ONE battle. Violating the TEMPORARY closed areas could send all that work down the drain.
The message this sends is that we need to police ourselves, because the greenies are right there watching when we do something wrong...
 

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I didn't know you lived up there, Tim. Sheila was just down there for a visit. We have some friends that live in Idllwild. Well now it's just one friend, Kathy Price now as her husband Steve Price passed away recently.:( Too bad I didn't know there HQ was up there. I know I could have convinced Steve to sabotoge their HQ or something. He had much the same mind set that I do.
 

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"The fact is this: for some reason, environmentalists cherish dunes. We have to deal with that." :rolleyes:
The fact is that they hate off roading of any kind or type, anywhere in any environment and for no specific reason. They will make up a reason if none is at hand. This is not restricted to dunes by any stretch. They are just a bunch of Sierra Club snobs whose real aim is to gain political power. They search for a few ass hats that abuse the land and if they can't find them, I am convinced that they actually manufacture damage to blame on off roaders. I wonder how much of a fight they would put up if hiking was to be included in all of the closures. That would seem to be the fair way to go to me. People can trample plant life by foot too. Don't tell me it doesn't happen either. I know better because I was a docent for the California State Parks for years and I know that idiot hikers are a problem. They have their share of ass hats as does the population in general. You are not going to get anywhere with this timid bullshit line by agreeing with them. There will always be a certian amount of jerks in any group, that is just a simple fact of life. It's time to get nasty, take the goves off and fight like you want to win. If you see an offroader doing something stupid, by all means get nasty with them too but don't bend to these enviro nitwits because you will just never win that way.
:soapbox:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
ShowStop said:
The message this sends is that we need to police ourselves, because the greenies are right there watching when we do something wrong...
We do need to police our own, but law enforcement needs to do their job as well. Oh wait, we're talking about the BLM. They don't like us and think it's great when we hang ourselves.

You can't close interstate 80 just because there are a bunch of jackasses who don't know how to drive properly. That's why we have law enforcement.

And a big huge FU to CBD, arrogant fuckers. :mad:

Later,
....Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #10
CBD Press Release

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/press/dunes12-2-04.html

Conservationists to challenge Bush Fish & Wildlife Service's failure to
consider protection for 17 at-risk Algodones Dunes endemic species

FWS breaks the law, fails to respond to scientific petitions to protect
wildlife and habitat

BLM's plan to open 86% of fragile dunes habitat to off-roading puts rare
wildlife at risk of extinction

NEWS RELEASE: for immediate release Thursday, December 2, 2004

Contact: Daniel R. Patterson, Ecologist 520.623.5252 x306

WASHINGTON DC - Moving to protect unique and fragile Sonoran Desert wildlife
threatened by intensive off-road vehicle abuse, the Center for Biological
Diversity today put the Bush administration on notice that they intend to
challenge the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service's (FWS) violations of U.S.
conservation law.

The administration is in clear violation of the Endangered Species Act by
failing to respond to two scientific petitions filed with FWS, one to list
the Andrew's dunes scarab beetle, and the other to list 16 Algodones Dunes
endemic species, as threatened or endangered. The beetle listing petition
was filed by the Center in December 2002. The 16 endemic species listing
petition was filed in July 2004 by the Center, Sierra Club, and Public
Employees for Environmental Responsibility. By law, FWS is required to issue
a finding on petitions within 90 days, detailing their analysis of the
information provided in petitions, and a plan of action .

The biggest harm to Algodones Dunes wildlife is intensive off-road driving -
the dunes are hammered by upwards of 240,000 off-roaders on a single busy
weekend. Off-road vehicles at the Algodones Dunes include sand rails,
motorcycles, trucks, and ATVs whose tires cut deeply into the sand habitat,
even when accelerating on level ground (Stebbins 1995). The dunes are
currently managed under a 2000 court approved agreement between the U.S.
Bureau of Land Management (BLM), off-roaders, and conservationists that
keeps over 106 sq. miles open to unlimited off-roading, while 49,000 acres
of the dunes are protected for wildlife, and scenic non-motorized
recreation. Despite this fair balance, the dunes have suffered from illegal
off-roading in protected habitat areas, and lax BLM enforcement, especially
during this Thanksgiving holiday weekend. BLM is pushing to scrap the
current balanced multiple-use management and open all available dunes
habitat to destructive off-roading.

"Protection of these interesting animals is needed, and required by law,
because the Bush plan to sacrifice the Algodones Dunes to the off-road
industry could cause their extinction," said Daniel R. Patterson, an
ecologist with the Center who formerly worked with BLM in the California
desert. "The Bush Interior Department has again broken the law with their
complete disregard for the unique and fragile web of life at the dunes."

In addition to the Andrew's dunes scarab beetle, the 16 endangered dunes
endemic species are: two sand wasps (Microbembex elegans Griswold and
Stictiella villegasi Bohart); two bees (Perdita algodones Timberlake and P.
glamis Timberlake); one vespid (Euparagia n. sp.); two velvet ants
(Dasymutilla nocturna Mickel and Dasymutilla imperialis); three jewel
beetles (Algodones sand jewel beetle, Lepismadora algodones Velten,
Algodones white wax jewel beetle, Prasinalia imperialis (Barr), and
Algodones Croton jewel beetle, Agrilus harenus Nelson); two scarab beetles
(Hardy's dune beetle, Anomala hardyorum Potts and Cyclocephala wandae); and
four subspecies of Roth's dune weevil (Trigonoscuta rothi rothi, T. r.
algodones, T. r. imperialis, and T. r. punctata). Conservationists also want
critical habitat designated for all 17 species concurrent with listing, as
required by law.

Dunes are hotspots of desert biological diversity, likely because they are
more mesic than other desert habitats due to their ability to store water.
The Algodones Dunes are no exception, harboring dozens of rare endemic
wildlife and plants within its habitat island. Animal species endemic to the
Algodones Dunes are adapted to the hot, arid environment and often exhibit
habitat specialization, such as dependence upon a particular host plant.
Narrow endemic species and habitat specialists are considered more prone to
extinction than widespread habitat generalists (Rabinowitz 1981, Sarre et
al. 1995, Fischer and Stocklin 1997, Henein et al.1998).

During daylight and early evening, 80% of desert fauna are buried
underground, and are subsequently crushed and maimed by off-road vehicle
tires (Stebbins 1995). For example, scientific surveys comparing areas used
by off-road vehicles with protected areas at the Algodones Dunes indicate
that off-roading causes drastic reductions in the abundance of several
beetle species (Luckenbach and Bury 1983). Off-roading also resulted in
reduced plant cover, further threatening the survival of the rare endemic
species of the Algodones Dunes that depend on these plants for food and
breeding sites. Studies at the dunes have shown that even moderate off-road
vehicle use results in significant reductions of plant cover (Luckenbach and
Bury 1983, Hess in prep.).

The preferred alternative in the Bush BLM's Draft Environmental Impact
Statement (DEIS) for the proposed Recreation Area Management Plan for the
Algodones Dunes (BLM RAMP 2002) would permit off-roading on an astounding
198,220 acres and protect only 25,800 acres which are already designated
wilderness by act of Congress. The one-sided plan is being pushed without
any consideration of the myriad rare endemic species that are the subject of
the July 2004 petition. In fact, the DEIS listed only five insect species as
"known to occur or having the potential to occur" at the Algodones Dunes,
and only three of the species are endemics (Andrew's dune scarab beetle,
Carlson's dune beetle, and Hardy's dune beetle). Therefore, the BLM ignored
the nearly two-dozen other endemic insects at the Algodones Dunes for which
information has long been available in the scientific literature.
Conservationists were able to locate information on these endemics readily
in the published literature, reports to the agency, and via personal
communication with entomologists familiar with the area. It is therefore
disturbing why the BLM made no acknowledgement of these species in its
management plan.

BLM has continued to push its abysmal management plan despite scientifically
proven adverse impacts of off-road vehicles on the species that inhabit the
Algodones Dunes. Therefore, vulnerability from anthropogenic (historic,
ongoing, and imminent human-caused habitat destruction) and environmental
(restricted range, habitat specialist) pressures, as well as a complete
failure of the existing regulatory mechanisms to protect this fragile dune
habitat and the species it supports from excessive off-road vehicle use,
puts the rare endemic wildlife at the Algodones Dunes at risk of extinction.

The BLM plan to remove the protected areas would be devastating to dozens of
imperiled species - including the Peirson's milkvetch, desert tortoise,
Algodones dunes sunflower, flat-tailed horned lizard, and Andrew's dunes
scarab beetle - greatly worsen air pollution, and run off hikers,
birdwatchers, photographers, Native Americans and others. In addition to
allowing intense environmental harm, opening conservation areas to off-road
vehicles will displace and keep away non-motorized visitors, costing nearby
communities in the Imperial Valley and Yuma at least $3.3 million annually
in sustainable recreation related spending.

Earlier this year FWS rejected a petition by the off-road industry to remove
Endangered Species Act protection for the Peirson's milkvetch, finding that
the rare flowering plant is harmed by off-road vehicles and in need of
continued legal protection.

The Center, Sierra Club, and Public Employees for Environmental
Responsibility are negotiating with the American Sand Association, an
off-road group, seeking an agreement on long-term sustainable management
options at the dunes.

Contact Daniel Patterson for a copy of today's legal filing.


_______________________________________________
Landuse mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.off-road.com/mailman/listinfo/landuse
 

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Dick Foster said:
"The fact is this: for some reason, environmentalists cherish dunes. We have to deal with that." :rolleyes:
The fact is that they hate off roading of any kind or type, anywhere in any environment and for no specific reason. They will make up a reason if none is at hand. This is not restricted to dunes by any stretch. They are just a bunch of Sierra Club snobs whose real aim is to gain political power. They search for a few ass hats that abuse the land and if they can't find them, I am convinced that they actually manufacture damage to blame on off roaders. I wonder how much of a fight they would put up if hiking was to be included in all of the closures. That would seem to be the fair way to go to me. People can trample plant life by foot too. Don't tell me it doesn't happen either. I know better because I was a docent for the California State Parks for years and I know that idiot hikers are a problem. They have their share of ass hats as does the population in general. You are not going to get anywhere with this timid bullshit line by agreeing with them. There will always be a certian amount of jerks in any group, that is just a simple fact of life. It's time to get nasty, take the goves off and fight like you want to win. If you see an offroader doing something stupid, by all means get nasty with them too but don't bend to these enviro nitwits because you will just never win that way.
:soapbox:
I have to completely agree with you. It has become rediculous across the country. Not only in Kalifornia, but Washington state as well. You can no longer bring your dog hiking with you anywhere in the Olympic National Forest. Although they do have a pretty good orv system, I can see the enviro-nazi's imposing there regime more and more up here. Itll be a sad day if they are successful in shutting down glamis or pismo or any other place that wheeling is allowed. This kind of shit pisses me off.... :explode:
 

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I remember the good old days when Glamis was free. Slowly we have let environmental wackos push us around, and take what we hold dear to us. They have proven to be total morons and not truly know anything. Evidence of this can be demonstrated by their fire managment in Southern CA. In the end they are directly responsible for homes burning in my opinion. Some of my favorite places have been closed or closed for a good portion of the year. Indian Flats for some damn frog mating season, Cedar Creek Falls for vegatation growth, and parts of Glamis for weeds and now bugs, and those are only the places that I frequently have visited in the past and know of first hand. If I didn't have a young son here in Southern California, I would be so out of here. I hate this state. I'm not a beach lover, and yeah the weather here is decent, but when you go across the country and see what else there is, it sure makes California look like a POS place to be. I went to North Dakota 3 times this year, one time driving through CA, AZ, NV, UT, ID, MT, and ND. There sure are some great places in this country to live.
 

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TheChiefSinner said:
I remember the good old days when Glamis was free. Slowly we have let environmental wackos push us around, and take what we hold dear to us. They have proven to be total morons and not truly know anything. Evidence of this can be demonstrated by their fire managment in Southern CA. In the end they are directly responsible for homes burning in my opinion.
Okay, I'll bite. How are enviro whackos directly repsonsible for homes burning?

* edited to fix HTML
 

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elgecko said:
Okay, I'll bite. How are enviro whackos directly repsonsible for homes burning?

* edited to fix HTML
The enviro wackos wont let the fire departments do controlled burns, so the chapparel gets too dense, and the leaves that shed from the chapparel build up. It is a common occurance that static electricity from eastern "santa ana" winds combined with super dry conditions (low humidity) can create a spontaneous combustion that causes many of the wildfires of Southern California. If the fire departments could take a proactive approach and do controlled burns, then they would be able to somewhat prevent these wildfires from getting so out of control. But hey, you wouldn't want to endanger some endangered cricket or grub would you? Ecological science says that chapparel should burn naturally once every seven years. It would definately burn if we didn't have fire departments. This info is always on the news every year. There is always a big wildfire, and the fire chief will be on the news explaining the need to do the controlled burns vs. environmental wackoism at the state level. I didn't just make it up. Chapparel that is 15 feet high is just a disaster waiting to happen. California democrat government officials are also a disaster waiting to happen.
 

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TheChiefSinner said:
The enviro wackos wont let the fire departments do controlled burns, so the chapparel gets too dense, and the leaves that shed from the chapparel build up. It is a common occurance that static electricity from eastern "santa ana" winds combined with super dry conditions (low humidity) can create a spontaneous combustion that causes many of the wildfires of Southern California. If the fire departments could take a proactive approach and do controlled burns, then they would be able to somewhat prevent these wildfires from getting so out of control. But hey, you wouldn't want to endanger some endangered cricket or grub would you? Ecological science says that chapparel should burn naturally once every seven years. It would definately burn if we didn't have fire departments. This info is always on the news every year. There is always a big wildfire, and the fire chief will be on the news explaining the need to do the controlled burns vs. environmental wackoism at the state level. I didn't just make it up. Chapparel that is 15 feet high is just a disaster waiting to happen. California democrat government officials are also a disaster waiting to happen.
Wouldn't that be an indirect result? Either way, you're right in the necessity for prescribed burns. It's ironic though that the need for prescribed burns is a result of years of fire management (i.e. fire suppresion). I'm not advocating letting wildfires run rampant, that'd be silly...just pointing out that the problem isn't entirely attributable to enviro whackoism. :)
 

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elgecko said:
Wouldn't that be an indirect result? Either way, you're right in the necessity for prescribed burns. It's ironic though that the need for prescribed burns is a result of years of fire management (i.e. fire suppresion). I'm not advocating letting wildfires run rampant, that'd be silly...just pointing out that the problem isn't entirely attributable to enviro whackoism. :)
You can stick up for the enviro wackos if you want, but I just been locked out of too many of my favorite places to have enthusiasm for their cause. It is honorable that they fight for what they believe, and yes some of what they believe may be true, but nobody knows how to manage the whole ecosystem of earth, and I don't trust them to "guide" us. If you have been to Glamis, I'm sure you can testify that the world isnt going to miss a few sand beetles, flys, scorpions, weeds, or ants. The part of the dunes that is impacted by off roading is probably less than 10% of the entire dune complex, if even that. Sure there is other places to go, but Glamis is the great offroaders paradise of Southern California and maybe even the whole southwest. Can't we even have one place that the wackos will just leave us alone at?
 

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The thing that amazes me is to what lengths people will go to micro manage the use of public lands they have never personally visited or enjoyed. How often do you suppose these people actually enjoy these remote places?

I originally purchased my 4x4 as a means to access remote hiking, biking, fishing, and hunting spots. I soon discovered that getting there is often more fun. Now they want roadless wilderness which cannot be accessed by most people. Rich classist bastards.
 

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calamaridog said:
The thing that amazes me is to what lengths people will go to micro manage the use of public lands they have never personally visited or enjoyed. How often do you suppose these people actually enjoy these remote places?

I originally purchased my 4x4 as a means to access remote hiking, biking, fishing, and hunting spots. I soon discovered that getting there is often more fun. Now they want roadless wilderness which cannot be accessed by most people. Rich classist bastards.
Calling them bastards makes them out to be better than they really are.
 

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TheChiefSinner said:
You can stick up for the enviro wackos if you want, but I just been locked out of too many of my favorite places to have enthusiasm for their cause. It is honorable that they fight for what they believe, and yes some of what they believe may be true, but nobody knows how to manage the whole ecosystem of earth, and I don't trust them to "guide" us. If you have been to Glamis, I'm sure you can testify that the world isnt going to miss a few sand beetles, flys, scorpions, weeds, or ants. The part of the dunes that is impacted by off roading is probably less than 10% of the entire dune complex, if even that. Sure there is other places to go, but Glamis is the great offroaders paradise of Southern California and maybe even the whole southwest. Can't we even have one place that the wackos will just leave us alone at?
I believe that the world is not black & white and don't feel that taking the "big picture" approach necessarily means I'm defending the envirowhackos. A situation as complex as the one in Glamis is caused by a number of factors. I've been to any number of places in the California desert where the level of irresponsible and inappropriate use (appliance dumping, sofa burning, car abandoning, etc) would cause an envirowhacko's head to literally explode. You never hear of endangered species problems in these areas. Why not?

One might argue that problems in high-use areas like Glamis are more likely a result of "reputation" that the users have established for themselves over the years. There was recently a discussion about New Years in Pismo on the Cali board. Some of the descriptions of New Years Eve there included speeding in and around campsites, drunken assholes, and numerous deaths, and general dicketry.

Mind you, these are the perceptions of offroaders. Look at it through the eyes of an envirowhacko and multiply it by the sheer number of users (isn't in the tens of thousands for Holiday weekends?) and you can see we have a huge public image problem.

We have a boatload of local access issues. Glamis and the Milk Vecth; Pismo and the Snowy Plover; Azusa Canyon and the Santa Ana Sucker Fish. Are endangered species somehow geographically limited to these areas? Is the level of misuse at these areas disproportionately high? The answer is "probably not". Are these areas being targeted by the envirowhackos because of the high level of use and public perceptions? It's something we as offroaders should ponder. Happy New Years.
 

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Ya I know all about these damn tree huggers they suck. I work for the US forrest service during the fire season on a hand crew and waht gets me is they alow us to go cut out miles of brush drop dead snags and a bunch of iron wood but after 2 weeks of working on the same spot they come and tell us u can cut all the trees just watch out for this crapy small little indangered weed. How the f$#@ am I gona be able to cut out thick brush with a chainsaw drop trees at decent pase and watch ot for some dumb weed.

If they dont what us wheeling here and there then give us a f%#^%$ place to wheel for god sakes it rediculous. Reminds me of my skateboading days cant skate anywhere accept your front yard.

-Chris
 
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