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Discussion Starter #1
If this sounds crazy, here's what I mean:

Here was my original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...&item=7954794448&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEUS:IT

I worked out something with one of the bidders...nice guy, don't get me wrong. He got them, then emailed this to me:

--------------------------------

Well, I got the three rims home tonight and unpacked them. I was really
surprised to see that these are not OEM Toyota rims. There are two
fairly obvious differences between these rims and the OEM one I have.
These don^╥t have the word <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" />Toyota or the factory size
code (T15x7JJ) embossed anywhere on them. On the OEM Toyota rim, those
marks are visible from the front of the wheel and are located between the
spokes. On your rims there is no manufacturer^╥s name and the size is
shown inside one of the spokes as 15x7. That^╥s not the way Toyota
states rim sizes. I had hoped to attach photos of one of the rims you
sent me and my OEM Toyota one I have but my digicam battery is dead. I
can send those photos tomorrow if necessary. You can check out pictures
of some OEM rims like these on ebay. I think you^╥ll see what I^╥m
talking about.

The other difference is in the seats for the lug nuts. Toyota alloy rims
use a shank type lug nut that goes in a square shouldered hole in the rim
hub. Your rims are machined for the lug nuts with the angled shoulder.
I think these are called acorn style. I^╤m not sure the lug nuts that I
bought which are OEM Toyota will even hold these on securely. Also, if
these came with acorn style lug nuts and you^╥re using them for your OEM
Land Cruiser rims, you should be concerned. I don^╥t think that style
nut is safe on an OEM rim.

Cliff, I^╥m not in anyway suggesting you knew about this. It^╥s entirely
possible that someone upgraded your truck with these replica rims before
you bought it. Anyway, I think if you take photos of your rims to any
person who knows Toyota wheels they will confirm my observations.

This is a real disappointment to me. I^╥ve been planning this project
and looking at rims for weeks. I thought I had found the beginning of
the right setup with yours and was anxious to finally get it done.

------------------------------

Wow. I asked him to email pictures of his findings, and this is what he sent:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~slop/truckWheels/



Is there something I don't know? I bought these from Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson MS. Did they swap "fake" Taco rims on when I bought my truck? I bought it brand-new, 3 miles on the odo, in July of 2000.

I'd love to hear any comments, suggestions, or information y'all might have. Thanks a bunch...I am not sure what to think in either direction.

Cliff
woof07
 

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Long lost Taco Owner
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820 Posts
woof07 said:
If this sounds crazy, here's what I mean:

Here was my original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7954794448&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT

I worked out something with one of the bidders...nice guy, don't get me wrong. He got them, then emailed this to me:

--------------------------------

Well, I got the three rims home tonight and unpacked them. I was really
surprised to see that these are not OEM Toyota rims. There are two
fairly obvious differences between these rims and the OEM one I have.
These don^╥t have the word <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" />Toyota or the factory size
code (T15x7JJ) embossed anywhere on them. On the OEM Toyota rim, those
marks are visible from the front of the wheel and are located between the
spokes. On your rims there is no manufacturer^╥s name and the size is
shown inside one of the spokes as 15x7. That^╥s not the way Toyota
states rim sizes. I had hoped to attach photos of one of the rims you
sent me and my OEM Toyota one I have but my digicam battery is dead. I
can send those photos tomorrow if necessary. You can check out pictures
of some OEM rims like these on ebay. I think you^╥ll see what I^╥m
talking about.

The other difference is in the seats for the lug nuts. Toyota alloy rims
use a shank type lug nut that goes in a square shouldered hole in the rim
hub. Your rims are machined for the lug nuts with the angled shoulder.
I think these are called acorn style. I^╤m not sure the lug nuts that I
bought which are OEM Toyota will even hold these on securely. Also, if
these came with acorn style lug nuts and you^╥re using them for your OEM
Land Cruiser rims, you should be concerned. I don^╥t think that style
nut is safe on an OEM rim.

Cliff, I^╥m not in anyway suggesting you knew about this. It^╥s entirely
possible that someone upgraded your truck with these replica rims before
you bought it. Anyway, I think if you take photos of your rims to any
person who knows Toyota wheels they will confirm my observations.

This is a real disappointment to me. I^╥ve been planning this project
and looking at rims for weeks. I thought I had found the beginning of
the right setup with yours and was anxious to finally get it done.

------------------------------

Wow. I asked him to email pictures of his findings, and this is what he sent:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~slop/truckWheels/



Is there something I don't know? I bought these from Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson MS. Did they swap "fake" Taco rims on when I bought my truck? I bought it brand-new, 3 miles on the odo, in July of 2000.

I'd love to hear any comments, suggestions, or information y'all might have. Thanks a bunch...I am not sure what to think in either direction.

Cliff
woof07
They are not OEM rims. Like the guy said, you would see T15X7JJ between the spokes. Also the plastic caps are not OEM because Toyota has there emblem on the cap and not the word Toyota
 

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Deal Master
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I think this is an issue of PORT installed options/upgrades
I think GULF STATE TOYOTA may have upgraded the wheels at port-
or these may also have been available dealer upgrade-
My best guess is that GST threw them on - and that is how your dealership received them.
I don't know if they(GST) had a shortage or just found cheaper manufacturing
But I came across the discrepency a few years back after owning two different Tacomas - each with a different set of wheels.

Not your fault....
And YOU did not mislead him-
- NO One is at fault in this case -


But he is somewhat correct in his evaluation of the Acutal TOYOTA OEM wheels from the factory
The "Toyota" ones have T15x7JJ & Toyota , use the shank "tophat syle" lugnuts, and USUALLY come with center caps with the toyota symbol

The other wheels I believe are made by Enkei or Prime,
The come with center caps that say "TOYOTA", DO not have any rasied lettering (T15x7JJ & Toyota), and they use the acorn syle lugnuts

I call the Toyota Wheels " Factory" wheels-
I call the other ones Knock -offs.
The only definite way to clarify is the markings(or lack of) on the wheel & the lugnut/ lugnut seats- since the center caps can be swapped.
However- the Knock-offs - technically do have a right to be classified as OEM - original equipment manufacturer- since they are most likely made my Enkei- (an OE manufacturer_ ) also the wheels were not really marketed as aftermarket wheels- and since they came that way from the port (GST)

I have owned about 18 of these wheels at one point, with 4 of them being the knock offs- (I had to have a diff set of lugnuts for them)
 

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I know that my 99' rims(bought it new from the stealer as well) had acorn lugs but as for the details of the identification on the wheels I have no idea as I sold them a while ago. Tell him to suck it up and buy new lugs, seems easy enough. Hope he isn't a hassle, good luck. Maybe manufacturing year and location has something to do with the differences?
 

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woof07 said:
Is there something I don't know? I bought these from Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson MS. Did they swap "fake" Taco rims on when I bought my truck? I bought it brand-new, 3 miles on the odo, in July of 2000.

I'd love to hear any comments, suggestions, or information y'all might have. Thanks a bunch...I am not sure what to think in either direction.

Cliff
woof07
Your dealer did not swap "fake" taco rims, pull out your window sticker & look for yourself.

You sold GST wheels, not Toyota wheels. If your buyer was as smart before bidding as he suddenly became after receipt he would have known right off the bat by the word "Toyota" vs. the sombrero.

Unfortunately, you misrepresented them.. the only saving grace for you was the picture, which is clear as day. Good Luck!
 

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Deal Master
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valkyrie said:
Your dealer did not swap "fake" taco rims, pull out your window sticker & look for yourself.

You sold GST wheels, not Toyota wheels. If your buyer was as smart before bidding as he suddenly became after receipt he would have known right off the bat by the word "Toyota" vs. the sombrero.

Unfortunately, you misrepresented them.. the only saving grace for you was the picture, which is clear as day. Good Luck!
Chris , the Toyota on the center caps Should be a red flag- but not always---(Raised letterin TOYOTA JJ 15x7) is a more definitive indicator)
ie - I could have had Gulf State Knock offs, had the center caps stolen and replaced them with the OEM emblem/ sombrero (lol) ones.

I also disagree about the misrepresentation- (unless the seller was aware of the 2 styles)
I actually feel the buyer has "plausible deniabillity" based on his Ebay ad
quote
These are the stock wheels that came with my beloved white Taco...I've had them since I drove the truck off the dealer's lot (Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson, MS).

If anyone is guilty of misrepresentation , its Gulf State Toyota :)
- my guess is that the sticker would just indicate alloy/aluminum wheel upgrade
 

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Dug up my sticker from the files and indeed it only states alloy upgrade and not that they are from a manufacturer other than Toyota. Just throwing some facts out there concerning my experience.
 

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grillmasterp said:
Chris , the Toyota on the center caps Should be a red flag- but not always---(Raised letterin TOYOTA JJ 15x7) is a more definitive indicator)
ie - I could have had Gulf State Knock offs, had the center caps stolen and replaced them with the OEM emblem/ sombrero (lol) ones.

I also disagree about the misrepresentation- (unless the seller was aware of the 2 styles)
I actually feel the buyer has "plausible deniabillity" based on his Ebay ad
quote
These are the stock wheels that came with my beloved white Taco...I've had them since I drove the truck off the dealer's lot (Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson, MS).

If anyone is guilty of misrepresentation , its Gulf State Toyota :)
- my guess is that the sticker would just indicate alloy/aluminum wheel upgrade
LOL! Always a stickler... I know non-Toyota wheels (and with Optimas) are your favorite posts, but: His auction clearly says in big letters "Factory Toyota Tacoma Aluminum Clear-coated Alloy Wheels w/centercaps"... they are not. You are making the distinction between knowingly misrepresenting and unknowingly misrepresenting (plausible deniability). I did not because in my experiences with EBay it intent does not matter, the buyer is defended either way. So I stand by my statement that it is misrepresentation (regardless of intent).

Cliff doesn't sound to me like the type who would stand in court and say "Well, I didn't know, but I got his money so it's his problem now".

As far as GST misrepresenting, well actually that's not accurate either. Fault lies squarely on the back of the dealer for not explaining that the third part of the sticker that says "Distributor Installed Options" is seperate form the "Factory Installed Options" for a reason and explaining to Cliff the differences.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I just want to thank all of you for chiming in...I'm learning a good bit that I obviously wasn't privvy to before. That stinks that GST would substitute "factory" wheels and neglect to tell me. I bet you I paid a factory price for them, though. Not sure if I still have my sticker, but I sure am going to look tonight. I have a message in to Hallmark's GM...we'll see what he says. I'm sure there's enough legal mumbo jumbo to where I have no recourse, but I'm going to try anyway.

Thanks again, folks. Much appreciated.

Cliff
 

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Juicy Jaos said:
what in the world is GULF STATE TOYOTA?
Gulf state Toyota is the "Port" the vehicle arrives from
- the intermediate stop in between Factory & Dealership.
In the US, its divided into several regions

Gulf State- basically covers the region between TX & FL

YOu can have Factory, Port, or Dealer installed options
 

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Juicy Jaos said:
what in the world is GULF STATE TOYOTA?
Back in the 60's, when foreign carmakers were trying to make inroads into the US, they were met with resistance from the Big 3.

In order to sweeten the deal for potential dealers, they allowed "Distributorships" to be set up, basically giving sole sales territory to companies so they would control distribution in a geographic area without competition.

Toyota had the entire country divided up into distributorships, many with thier own suppliers for accessories. Over time, TMC (Toyota Motor Corportation) bought out these distributorships in an effort to bring consistency & standardization to their sales training, technician training, accounting and accessories. One of the problems was that a spoiler, roof rack, mudguard, or even bumper for that matter would be different form region to region (distributor to distributor), making parts matching and collision repair problematic.

Gulf States Toyota and Southeast Toyota are the two sole-surviving distributorships in Toyota today. They are, as Phong said, referred to as 'the port', even for cars produced in the US.
 

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"knock-off rims"

woof07 said:
If this sounds crazy, here's what I mean:


Wow. I asked him to email pictures of his findings, and this is what he sent:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~slop/truckWheels/



Is there something I don't know? I bought these from Hallmark Toyota, in Jackson MS. Did they swap "fake" Taco rims on when I bought my truck? I bought it brand-new, 3 miles on the odo, in July of 2000.

I'd love to hear any comments, suggestions, or information y'all might have. Thanks a bunch...I am not sure what to think in either direction.

Cliff
woof07


Hey Cliff,
nice to know there's some1 else from Ms on here, I'm in Madison btw. Anyways, I wouldn't worry about it. As they say ignorance isn't an excuse. However, over something like this, if he can't get over it.... well that's his damn problem. Sounds to me that he's a perfectionist. I doubt Hallmark is gonna lose any sleep over this, so that's probably a waste of your time. Simply explain to the man, you didn't do it intentionally, and worst case scenario, me personally, I'd just tell him to send em' back and I'd give him a refund. Then, RE-POST em' on ebay as Toyota "knock-offs". Good luck man. Peace, Wes
 

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Well this guy needs to just suck it up. If he couldn't tell when he bought the rims after looking at the pics. Then I very seriuosly doubt anyone will ever notice the rims being different. Offer to buy the guy some lug nuts. I don't know let him cry about it alil while then he'll get over it. Good Luck. I hope you didn't give him your home phone number LOL.
 

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This is the buyers fault, he saw the pictures before hand and could have easily asked questions but he didn't. His "knowledge" didn't come until after he had bought them. He knew what he was getting. If he doesn't like them, he can sell them. I have done that. Give us an update Cliff.
 

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grillmasterp said:
the Toyota on the center caps Should be a red flag- but not always---(Raised letterin TOYOTA JJ 15x7) is a more definitive indicator)
ie - I could have had Gulf State Knock offs, had the center caps stolen and replaced them with the OEM emblem/ sombrero (lol) ones.
The OEM center caps arent always present, they can be substituted. When I bought my 99 new from Toyota it had "Toyota" on the caps, as did all the trucks on the lot at Virginia Beach Toyota. A year later while having maintenance completed on the truck a friend working at the dealership made a remark about "knock-off" rims, I pulled my original invoice and started to complain they were supposed to be "Factory" rims, he verified the rims were factory (Stubb44 has them now). They had "Toyota" caps on the factory rims, my friend brought this to the attention of the dealership and they gave me a new set of the "Factory" caps with the insignia, with the explanation that the caps were sometimes swapped if their was a shortage of the Factory caps.

Tim
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by grillmasterp
the Toyota on the center caps Should be a red flag- but not always---(Raised letterin TOYOTA JJ 15x7) is a more definitive indicator)
ie - I could have had Gulf State Knock offs, had the center caps stolen and replaced them with the OEM emblem/ sombrero (lol) ones.

tbplus10 said:
The OEM center caps arent always present, they can be substituted. When I bought my 99 new from Toyota it had "Toyota" on the caps, as did all the trucks on the lot at Virginia Beach Toyota. A year later while having maintenance completed on the truck a friend working at the dealership made a remark about "knock-off" rims, I pulled my original invoice and started to complain they were supposed to be "Factory" rims, he verified the rims were factory (Stubb44 has them now). They had "Toyota" caps on the factory rims, my friend brought this to the attention of the dealership and they gave me a new set of the "Factory" caps with the insignia, with the explanation that the caps were sometimes swapped if their was a shortage of the Factory caps.
Tim
-MY point exactly! LOL Tim you need to tell Ck that. -
Like I said only definitive way is with the Raised lettering on the actuall rim-
Toyota 15x7 JJ
 

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grillmasterp said:
-MY point exactly! LOL Tim you need to tell Ck that. -
Like I said only definitive way is with the Raised lettering on the actuall rim-
Toyota 15x7 JJ
I never disagreed that the part number is the only definitve way to tell. I live by VIN's & P/N's...

The center caps are a valid first indicator for probably 99.9% of the cases. If it had a sombrero cap (in which case questioning the authenticity would be an afterthought to most), I could understand, but if it says Toyota then you have to ask questions right from the beginning... which this buyer didn't. Since not many are aware of the differences, and the seller said they were Genuine Toyota, I stand by my original opinion that the seller unintentionally misled the buyer.

Cliff's resolution is up to his conscience.
 

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again...not that it really matters, but i just feel like pointing it out that on 4runners of the same body style as our tacomas (like 95-03 or whatever) some of them actually have Enkei centercaps, which would make it damn simple to pick out the "fakes." Wonder why they didn't do that w/ Tacomas...
Ryan
 
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