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I am not posting this to start a debate. I am posting this so everyone has a little more idea on how Health Care Reform or Universal Health Care can go so wrong if it is not done properly and without an agenda.

This task is WAY to huge to do in the first year of President Obama's term. Hell I know of Marketing plans that took 2 years to evolve.

The Wall Street Journal has historically been about as even and unbiased as you can get.

Please read this and consider the implications it will or may have on YOU.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574298661486528186.html
 

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Jody I will read this now. But before I do I am glad you bring this up. I mean here I am in the middle of a healthcare diagnosis fiasco and unless it changes for the better (prolly not) I would be even more screwed.

I think this is a debate worth having.

And lets remember - we on CoTTORA try not to pull the name calling crap that happens on the NB. So remember, we can agree to disagree. (This is not a finger pointed at this thread or subject - just more an open wound after what happened on the NB with a recent thread)
 

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I didn't think it was condescending. I took it as just his opinion. Or are you starting shit Jay? :xpimp: Cuz if so don't make me get out my mod stick... I swear i'm in a mood to mod tonight. I should go over to the "Don't Hate On It" thread and kick some ass. :xdevil:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Jody I will read this now. But before I do I am glad you bring this up. I mean here I am in the middle of a healthcare diagnosis fiasco and unless it changes for the better (prolly not) I would be even more screwed.

And ths insurance you do have is in jeapordy. Troy has good insurance because he works for a large corporation. If the new plan takes away the ability of large companies to pool (Allowed by ERISA) then benefits will crumble.


I have always been an advocate for Health Care Reform. and I have ALWAYS said it is way to complex to come to fruition in one year. There are too many issues to be addressed. To many trickle down effects it could have that need to be analyzed. And it needs to be void of any preferential perks pushing anyone from a private to a public system.
 

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I am not posting this to start a debate. I am posting this so everyone has a little more idea on how Health Care Reform or Universal Health Care can go so wrong if it is not done properly and without an agenda.

This task is WAY to huge to do in the first year of President Obama's term. Hell I know of Marketing plans that took 2 years to evolve.

The Wall Street Journal has historically been about as even and unbiased as you can get.

Please read this and consider the implications it will or may have on YOU.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574298661486528186.html

:doh::banghead: If you didn't want to start a debate, then you should have posted up something about the weather.

Coming from someone who has actually "used" socialized medicine and is married to someone who grew up with it her whole life, I can tell you it's a lot different than Fixed News wants you to believe. Ever notice how NO country in the world has any politician running on the "I want to get rid of our national health plan" platform? Funny how no one here in states runs on the "I want to get rid of Medicare" platform either. I love how people think that socialized medicine is OK if you're 65 or older, but not OK if you're 64 or younger :rolleyes: ......put the kool-aid down ;)

I'm not for Obama's plan either but let's call it what it really is: Health INSURANCE reform. People are still only looking at the symptom, not the problem. The problem is insurance, the symptom is high insurance premiums and people without insurance. Get rid of the insurance companies and you start addressing the real problem. Unfortunately, socialized medicine will not work in this country right now because people are too easily brainwashed by right-wing entertainers who serve up fresh cool-aid stating that the word socialized=communism (when Obama's plan isn't even socialized medicine in the first place)...I guess they forget about all the other "socialized" programs they like: police, fire, teachers, post office, etc. So, why not go the "capitalist" route then? Oh wait I forgot...they're too busy saying no to everything then to put forward an alternative solution :doh:

Here's a uniquely American idea...get rid of the second best scam artists in the world, the insurance companies, and open up the medical field to the free market and let doctors & hospitals compete for YOUR business. Then, you create competition and what does competition do?....it INCREASES the quality of care while REDUCING the cost of it. Not to mention doctors won't have to fork over millions to the insurance companies for malpractice insurance so there's a WHOLE lot more savings. Look what happened in the electronics field. The cost keeps going down while the quality increases. Remember how much a plasma or HD TV cost when they first came out? Look at computers, CDs, digital cameras, DVD players....I think you get the idea.
 

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The problem with health care reform, is not that it is being reformed, it is that the reform is being pushed too hard, too fast, and without thought to the long term impacts, just as the 'stimulus' package was jammed through.

Congressman Kevin Brady attempted to flow chart everything that is in the reform package that is being touted. The chart, which you can view here is an absolute nightmare to understand. Congressional Democrats are trying to block (Republicans) sending this chart to their constituents.

The proposals have already caused a rift in the American Medical Association with many doctors severing their ties to that organization. Blue Dog Democrats are against and have managed to stall it from coming out of committee to the point that Congress is now considering changing the committee rules in order to push it forward. The Senate has refused to be pressured into bringing it to an immediate vote, for once doing what is right and sane.

The scariest part of all this 'reform' is that there is little to no input from the people that should have input, those in the medical field. The Mayo Clinic has spoken out on the proposed changes, saying that there is not enough focus on the patient and results.

There is another article in the Wall Street Journal that should be read as well. GovernmentCare’s Assault on Seniors . I'll offer the opening paragraph as a teaser to the rest of the article.

Since Medicare was established in 1965, access to care has enabled older Americans to avoid becoming disabled and to travel and live independently instead of languishing in nursing homes. But legislation now being rushed through Congress—H.R. 3200 and the Senate Health Committee Bill—will reduce access to care, pressure the elderly to end their lives prematurely, and doom baby boomers to painful later years.
Everything in this reform will eventually lead us to socialized medicine. For those thinking that that can not be so bad, afterall they have it Canada and the United Kingdom, I can offer evidence of where and how it has majorly impacted the quality of life for people.

We need reform. We need reform that places healthcare decisions in the hands of the patients and the healthcare providers, not in the hands of bureaucrats and insurance companies. We need reform that will reduce the costs of medical care and prescriptions. We do not need socialized medicine.
 

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after reading it closer i retract my previous statement. either way, like shawn said, if you dont want to start a debate post the weather forecast for next week. Im staying out of this thread from here foreward :p
 

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after reading it closer i retract my previous statement. either way, like chalkie said, if you dont want to start a debate post the weather forecast for next week. Im staying out of this thread from here foreward :p
I did not say that, Shawn did... but it is a true statement none the less :D
 

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

This aired a while ago on PBS but is very well approached IMO for exploring universal health care systems ... the reading material is not bad either if you are remotely interested in the topic!

It is educational so you might learn some facts and not rhetorical "unbiased" news so be forewarned the infotainment value is low!:eek:

(comment section)
I have stopped subscribing to the Wall Street Journal since NewsCorp took over ... they have stated they are now aiming the Journal at competing with the NY Times and NY Post (another NewsCorp rag) for general news, politics, entertainment advertising dollars ...
WSJ is not even close to being a leader in breaking financial market & publicly held company news and related issues to the plight of corporate america they used to be!

BTW any article quoting studies prepared by the "Lewis Group" for the "Heritage Foundation" is not presenting "politically unbiased" news, as these are political entities!
So you can drop the aforementioned WSJ articles in the vat of political BS that corporate advertisers pay to "shape the view" on health care reform.

**** I have received indirect income from HCA, CHS, and other publicly traded health care companies as well, have worked for various political think tanks and political organizations in various capacities in the interest of fair disclosure****:D
 

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I am not posting this to start a debate. I am posting this so everyone has a little more idea on how Health Care Reform or Universal Health Care can go so wrong if it is not done properly and without an agenda.

This task is WAY to huge to do in the first year of President Obama's term. Hell I know of Marketing plans that took 2 years to evolve.

The Wall Street Journal has historically been about as even and unbiased as you can get.

Please read this and consider the implications it will or may have on YOU.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574298661486528186.html
Um! health care reform has been a political issue debated longer than I have been alive ... it is possible to find an agenda to everything ... and how!

Tackling an issue like our nations health care system has been long put off, regardless of the stage of a politicians political term, is going to be hard.
Like the time value of money (the longer you hold it the less purchase value you have),it is only going to be more expensive and harder to change the longer we hold the current system!

This issue has been explored and debated in congress since the 60's, really an issue since the AMA formed 160 years ago... its about time someone in a place of power made it a real priority ... and at least is standing in front of the country with a proposed solution!

I can honestly pick apart any plan and find "potential issues" with any proposal ... politically motivated or not!

this is really one of those "lead, follow, or get out of the way" situations ... only the fear of actual change paralyzes many of those who will actually benefit from a more efficient health care system (regardless of how a given ideology labels it) and keeps them from getting out of the way!

Who really benefits from things staying the way they are?
I know because I worked with them, for them and can potentially be a "them"!
The bigger question is: do they have the same interests, consequences and rewards available to them, as you?
 

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**** I have received indirect income from HCA, CHS, and other publicly traded health care companies as well, have worked for various political think tanks and political organizations in various capacities in the interest of fair disclosure****:D
I can honestly pick apart any plan and find "potential issues" with any proposal ... politically motivated or not!
Wow! Is there anything you haven't done Layton? :rolleyes: Oh, wait there is......WHEELING :D
 

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Wow! Is there anything you haven't done Layton? :rolleyes: Oh, wait there is......WHEELING :D
some hard to find online evidence to the contrary::eek:



I am a long time wheeler with many off road miles under my belt, I'm just not a very good pose for pictures to post on the internet wheeler :)

I am guilty of being interested in a wide variety of things that affect my daily life! :D
 

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Wow! Is there anything you haven't done Layton? :rolleyes: Oh, wait there is......WHEELING :D
**** I have received indirect income from HCA, CHS, and other publicly traded health care companies as well, have worked for various political think tanks and political organizations in various capacities in the interest of fair disclosure****:D
Although I must say Layton, with all the *companies* you have worked for or been associated with, and all you have said to have done, you should be president by now... Just sayin' ;)

But your PBS link was good to see. :D
 

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This aired a while ago on PBS but is very well approached IMO for exploring universal health care systems ... the reading material is not bad either if you are remotely interested in the topic!

It is educational so you might learn some facts and not rhetorical "unbiased" news so be forewarned the infotainment value is low!:eek:
If you think that PBS is unbiased, then I am not sure who has been sipping the kool-aide. :D

There is NOTHING in the public eye or forum that is unbiased. Period. One would think that the 'hard' sciences could be presented factually, but we have seen that is not even true (global warming?).

this is really one of those "lead, follow, or get out of the way" situations ...
You are absolutely right. You can choose to follow the current 'leadership', a term I use loosely, or you can choose to lead in a different direction in opposition to that leadership, or follow that opposition.

When you, personally, set out to solve a large problem do you try to solve it in total all at once? or do you break the problem into smaller pieces, solving each one to result in a total solution? Personally, I use the latter method as it makes it easier to go back a fix something if I got a step wrong.

What we are seeing is an attempt to solve the entire problem all at once by people that are not expert (with few exceptions) in anything other than getting re-elected. The current proposed legislation contains 1000+ pages and like the stimulus package, I sincerely doubt that any of the people voting on it have read, much less understand, the total package.

I am sure that you would agree that we all too often see unintended consequences from laws that are passed, requiring legislators to go back and fix things. This is easier accomplished when the bills are smaller, more focused and less sweeping in scope. The nature of our legislature is such that it is often impossible to repeal portions of a bill, so instead yet another bill is passed attempting to correct what is wrong. The result is something even more convoluted. Think of our tax laws and then apply that to medical care.

I am all for health care reform, I just want to see it reformed one step at a time and see it done right the first time around.
 

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I am all for health care reform, I just want to see it reformed one step at a time and see it done right the first time around.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Oh and I agree Gary (Chalkie) PBS and NPR lean left. No doubt about it. But then we have Fox News and Rush Limbaugh to balance it all out right?


I vote John Stewart for middle ground! :xrocker::thumbs:
 

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I don't know anything about this health care reform crap, but to Chalkie's point about solving large complex problems: Fixing one little thing at a time works, untill you have a big rats nest of problems, then sometimes it's better to rip everything out and start fresh.

Just sayin that fixing one small thing at a time doesn't always work.
 
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