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Discussion Starter #1
I am beginning to get restless not having a project to devote my time and energy towards. So with a spare motor sitting at a friends garage, I am considering a "buggy build" for my teenage son to drive. Bad thing about it though with some of my ideas his rig is going to be strong, better than my truck. (but shouldn't a father/son relationship be that way?LOL)

Anyway. I am in the idea developement stage. Currently I am contemplating twin Dana 60's under a toyota frame with my ford 302.

I say and mean "twin Dana 60's" in a literal fashion. I am thinking of putting two front 60's under it for front and rear steer.

Problem being is I am hung up on how it actually works, I mean do you install special reverse cut gears for the rear axle since it will be spinning in the opposite direction the gears were designed for? Or do you have to cut the tubes and flip the diff, (that idea doesn't seem logical to me)

I have done both google and forum searches and have not come up with anything. any insight would be greatly appreciated! I would like to do this but cost will probably be a concern as always.

I found a place I could do two Rockwells that I could have built ready for rear steer. but to me, the rockwells would be way too much overkill for such a light rig.

And yes I realize my title says I finished my SAS. I am fully aware that a SAS is never finished, but for simplicity sake I titled it that way.
 

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Big tars, little bed.
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Bear I would think youd take a normal D60 rear cut the ends and put on steering knuckles. Does that make sense? :flipoff4:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
so in other words I am making it too complicated! dayum!

I hate feeling like shit. my normal fucked up way of thinking gets even worse!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I am assuming then you just use axle shafts for a front axle in place of rear axle shafts as well?

Dealing with Dana 60's I assume there are different lengths WMS/WMS just as there are with the 44's?
 

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I'm no expert on the subject, but I've always understood that as explained, you take a rear d60, add front outers, and get some custom shafts made, or cut down and spline 2 long side fronts. It will be sick, plus you get a joystick to play with too.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Still in "developement" but yea it should be a nice set up!

I always get spooked when the term custom shafts are mentioned. Don't know why, I just do.

Thanks for the input.
 

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Bear said:
I am assuming then you just use axle shafts for a front axle in place of rear axle shafts as well?

Dealing with Dana 60's I assume there are different lengths WMS/WMS just as there are with the 44's?
Id assume custom inner (unless you get lucky and the width you want to cut your axle just happens tobe a "readymade" length) and standard outters.

PS Bear Im not 100% sure so get a 2nd O. This is just what my common sense is telling me so "beware" :D I could be wrong.
 

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yep, just take a rear Low pinion D60, cut the spindles off, pick your favorite aftermarket inner C's, knuckles, buy custom shafts, spend lots of money for the full hydro steering setup. Do not run a HP rear like a dynatrac, with decent sized tires it will blow the ring and pinion apart. you will also have to get some custom axle seals since a rear D60 bathes the wheel bearings in oil. If it were me, i would just have someone build the axle, if you want to get crazy im sure sunray will sell you some of there 1610 axles :D

 

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well sounds like you got some work ahead of you. You know a n IFS/IRS buggy would be cool. with rear strearing of course. I bet i can even help you find the extra IFS to use for the rear :D
 

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Personally.... I think for a teenage son... you should stick with a basic Dana 60 with no rear steer. I dont see the point with somebody new at driving and crawling. Im sure riding / driving with you he has some expierence, hell... I let my 11 year olds drive my truck through some pretty fun stuff. But on his own... just stick with the no steer rear end.

IMO

Yogi


Bear said:
I am beginning to get restless not having a project to devote my time and energy towards. So with a spare motor sitting at a friends garage, I am considering a "buggy build" for my teenage son to drive. Bad thing about it though with some of my ideas his rig is going to be strong, better than my truck. (but shouldn't a father/son relationship be that way?LOL)

Anyway. I am in the idea developement stage. Currently I am contemplating twin Dana 60's under a toyota frame with my ford 302.

I say and mean "twin Dana 60's" in a literal fashion. I am thinking of putting two front 60's under it for front and rear steer.

Problem being is I am hung up on how it actually works, I mean do you install special reverse cut gears for the rear axle since it will be spinning in the opposite direction the gears were designed for? Or do you have to cut the tubes and flip the diff, (that idea doesn't seem logical to me)

I have done both google and forum searches and have not come up with anything. any insight would be greatly appreciated! I would like to do this but cost will probably be a concern as always.

I found a place I could do two Rockwells that I could have built ready for rear steer. but to me, the rockwells would be way too much overkill for such a light rig.

And yes I realize my title says I finished my SAS. I am fully aware that a SAS is never finished, but for simplicity sake I titled it that way.
 

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rear steer will probably get him in more trouble as far as being on his lid than a non-steering axle. I know i got in some really messed up spots the first few times i drove a rig with rear stear, but like everything else if you do it enough you will become used to it and now its second nature (until i get into someones who has the rear steer valve swapped the opposite direction then it takes me a good 30 min's to stop steering the rear the wrong way.I would say if you build a light weight buggy it with a good cage, with good suspension seats, and he uses the harnesses it really shouldn't matter how bad it roles. I would have loved if my dad built me something when i was 16, but make him help and learn so he will appreciate it. dont do the rockwells unless you plan on putting 400+ HP to the ground, (then plan on breaking axle shafts) or dont want to spend the money on building the one ton stuff. they (the rocks) are a pain in the ass if you try to keep the rig low. My frame under the door is 31" (still to tall for me) on 47" tires with 2" between the toploader and nearest motor part.
 

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why would you build him a buggy? Shouldn't he drive the truck and you drive the buggy! :D :p
yes you could use to front 60's with the same gears they would take in the front. The biggest problem would be the offset pumpkin in the rear by using a stock front d60.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
PappaF2 said:
why would you build him a buggy? Shouldn't he drive the truck and you drive the buggy! :D :p
yes you could use to front 60's with the same gears they would take in the front. The biggest problem would be the offset pumpkin in the rear by using a stock front d60.
Because I drive the truck to work on the following Monday. ;)

I am understanding the issue with the offset, but doesn't it matter on the direction the ring is turning. I mean they are designed to turn more frequently in one direction, and in reverse less frequently. So wouldn't driving with a front axle in the rear be like driving in reverse most of the time? In other words, wouldn't you be applying most of the force on the coast side of the gears?

I am not argueing, just trying to understand better. I have an email out to the company I found that has the axles. They say they can basically build an axle from the ground up (ie, gears, seals, lockers and bearings) I basically asked them if they could cut the outters of a front off and replace the rear flanges with them. To me that would be the simpliest…where is my falsies in that reasoning? Other than the custom axle shafts.
 

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Bear said:
Because I drive the truck to work on the following Monday. ;)

I am understanding the issue with the offset, but doesn't it matter on the direction the ring is turning. I mean they are designed to turn more frequently in one direction, and in reverse less frequently. So wouldn't driving with a front axle in the rear be like driving in reverse most of the time? In other words, wouldn't you be applying most of the force on the coast side of the gears?

I am not argueing, just trying to understand better. I have an email out to the company I found that has the axles. They say they can basically build an axle from the ground up (ie, gears, seals, lockers and bearings) I basically asked them if they could cut the outters of a front off and replace the rear flanges with them. To me that would be the simpliest…where is my falsies in that reasoning? Other than the custom axle shafts.
If you tossed an unmodified front axle in the rear, your front wheels would want to turn forward and the rear "front" would want to turn forward too which is no reverse since its facing backward. Get it? :D

It DOES matter which way the gears are cut.
its the same concept as taking a low pinion and turning it upside down to make a high pinion. It wont work. Your wheels would turn backwards in forward gear and vice versa.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
That is kinda the way I was thinking, so as you told me I believe in post #2, cut the flanges off the rear axle and replace with outter knuckles from a front axle would be the best bet.

A bit more work, but better result correct? But then here lies another question.

would you want to place the passenger side knuckle on the left and the drivers side on the right? otherwise you are going to be locating the tie rod in front of the axle as well as in the potiential path of the driveshaft. I want to place the tie rod behind the axle thus needing to swap sides for the knuckles to put them in correct orientation. does that last statement make sense? Or can I explain it better?
 

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GOT COPE? said:
If you tossed an unmodified front axle in the rear, your front wheels would want to turn forward and the rear "front" would want to turn forward too which is no reverse since its facing backward. Get it? :D

It DOES matter which way the gears are cut.
its the same concept as taking a low pinion and turning it upside down to make a high pinion. It wont work. Your wheels would turn backwards in forward gear and vice versa.
What are you talking about? If you put an unmodified front D60 in the rear it would drive like normal (save all the steering, offset issues)
THere are 2 types of Dana 60 gearsets.
One is stardard cut low pinion
Two is reverse cut high pinion
Low pinion 60's are found on the front and rear of many vehicals most commonly chevy and dodge 1 tons have them in the front while many ford 3/4 ton have them in the rear. Front and rear low pinion D60s use the same gears front and rear.
High pinion 60's are on the front of some ford 1 ton trucks. If you put a high pinion in the rear you would still drive forward just fine.
The only way the axle would try to go the opposite direction on the other is if you turned one upside down, or I supose if you put high pinion revese cut gears into a low pinion housing, but why the fawk would anyone do that???
Think about the toyota 8" this is why you can carry one spare 3rd member to replace the front or rear should they break, because they are the same.
 

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just adding to this to help make it clearer.
If you have a rig with low pinion 60's front and rear and you need to order gears you would order 2 indentical sets of what ever ratio you planned on running.

Bear as far as the knuckles go, I'm pretty sure all the 60 inners knuckles are the same from right to left (besides kingpin vs ball joint) but just make sure the outer knucles have steering arms on the diff cover side of the axle. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just seems that you would be applying tork to the coast side of the gears if you just flipped a front dana in place of a rear axle.

But if you did just "flip" the front axle, then you would not have to worry about the tie rod/arms being on the wrong side. They would be in the proper location.

Just the coast side of the gears has me baffled now! Obviously if I ordered a rear axle instead of a front axle for the back, it would be cheaper…excluding the custom placement of the knuckles. I should still be able to order the same ratio regardless of which axle they go in. ( I would of coarse specify which axle they are for when ordering)

I have no idea why I am having troubles wrapping my brain around this one!

Does anyone know if the search feature is working for non contributing members over on Pirate?
 

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PappaF2 said:
What are you talking about? If you put an unmodified front D60 in the rear it would drive like normal (save all the steering, offset issues)
THere are 2 types of Dana 60 gearsets.
One is stardard cut low pinion
Two is reverse cut high pinion
Low pinion 60's are found on the front and rear of many vehicals most commonly chevy and dodge 1 tons have them in the front while many ford 3/4 ton have them in the rear. Front and rear low pinion D60s use the same gears front and rear.
High pinion 60's are on the front of some ford 1 ton trucks. If you put a high pinion in the rear you would still drive forward just fine.
The only way the axle would try to go the opposite direction on the other is if you turned one upside down, or I supose if you put high pinion revese cut gears into a low pinion housing, but why the fawk would anyone do that???
Think about the toyota 8" this is why you can carry one spare 3rd member to replace the front or rear should they break, because they are the same.
Word :) High pinion in the rear will function just like a low pinion. It's like comparing a high pinion axle up front and a low pinion, it doesn't matter which one you use, you still go forward in forward gear :rolleyes:
 
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