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Discussion Starter #1
For those of you who have been following the evolution of the Rubicon Master Plan.

http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/Rubicon/MasterPlanDraftMarch2005.html

There's still some possibly negative stuff in there, check out element 8 talking about fees, reservations, trail use limits, and directional traffic controls.

Talk about an enforcement nightmare!

Later,
....Mike
 

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wut?
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Mike said:
For those of you who have been following the evolution of the Rubicon Master Plan.

http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/Rubicon/MasterPlanDraftMarch2005.html

There's still some possibly negative stuff in there, check out element 8 talking about fees, reservations, trail use limits, and directional traffic controls.

Talk about an enforcement nightmare!

Later,
....Mike
Do you think the 600 vechical limit at anytime is a high or low number? Im totaly oposed to charging fees to acess public land. That is why we pay taxes. Plus, the majoriy of collected fees on federal land go to the general fund.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ted said:
Do you think the 600 vechical limit at anytime is a high or low number? Im totaly oposed to charging fees to acess public land. That is why we pay taxes. Plus, the majoriy of collected fees on federal land go to the general fund.
Well, I think the numbers are flawed. I think 600 rigs on the trail at any one time is pretty extreme, but it's hard to tell. You can get into the trail from four different trailheads, and people come and go all hours of the day and night. It would take some really detailed monitoring to find out what the real world numbers are.

I am also opposed to any sort of fees. I say make the permits similar to the campfire permits, free, but your signature is on them certifying that you have read and understand what is expected of you.

I do not care for any sort of camping restrictions either. Once you start forcing people into established campgrounds, well, you might as well just spend the weekend at the fawking KOA. People head up to the Rubicon to challenge their rigs and enjoy the remote wilderness camping.

Unfortunately, the Rubicon has become too popular.

Later,
....Mike
 

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It absolute best fix for this is to open up more trails in order to reduce the impact generated by forcing even more people into ever diminishing areas. Has any of our brilliant government types even brought up that remedy or would that make too much sense? The end goal to all of this type of nonsense it to create a slave state with us being the slaves. Yes, it is a small part but it still indicates the general direction things are headed just the same. i.e. You will recreate when and where we tell you to recreate and take your work product in the process because we the government have determined that it is a privilege, is at our discretion and is and not your right.
 

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Dick Foster said:
It absolute best fix for this is to open up more trails in order to reduce the impact generated by forcing even more people into ever diminishing areas.
Too bad this is about as likely to happen as... yeah the probability is approaching 0.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Dick Foster said:
It absolute best fix for this is to open up more trails in order to reduce the impact generated by forcing even more people into ever diminishing areas. Has any of our brilliant government types even brought up that remedy or would that make too much sense? The end goal to all of this type of nonsense it to create a slave state with us being the slaves. Yes, it is a small part but it still indicates the general direction things are headed just the same. i.e. You will recreate when and where we tell you to recreate and take your work product in the process because we the government have determined that it is a privilege, is at our discretion and is and not your right.
That makes too much sense. Hell, I would volunteer every weekend to help build new trails in the Sierra. Unfortunately there are so many barriers to creating new trails that it's next to impossible.

There are a lot of trails around, just that most people don't know about them or how to get to them. Everyone has heard of the Rubicon, thus it's overcrowded condition.

I believe the current plan in the works is to restore the little sluice to resemble the difficulty of the rest of the trail. This will most likely remove the reason most of the asshats end up at Spider Lake trashing things up.

Later,
....Mike
 

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Mike said:
I believe the current plan in the works is to restore the little sluice to resemble the difficulty of the rest of the trail. This will most likely remove the reason most of the asshats end up at Spider Lake trashing things up.
I hate to be a pessimist, but I wonder where they'll go next? It'll be somewhere remote where they can have an open beer in every cup holder. We just need to start inflicting pain.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
BigBadBob0 said:
I hate to be a pessimist, but I wonder where they'll go next? It'll be somewhere remote where they can have an open beer in every cup holder. We just need to start inflicting pain.
Well, not sure where they will end up, but I think it will be good for the trail. The little sluice is easy to get to from Loon Lake, and people go there for the show. If you take away the show, or have to wheel farther in to mess around, less people will make the effort. The show at the little sluice attracts lots of non-wheelers who could care less about trashing up the place. Unfortunately, Spider Lake ends up the victim because of it's close proximity to the sluice.

Later,
....Mike
 

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Dick Foster said:
It absolute best fix for this is to open up more trails in order to reduce the impact generated by forcing even more people into ever diminishing areas. Has any of our brilliant government types even brought up that remedy or would that make too much sense? The end goal to all of this type of nonsense it to create a slave state with us being the slaves. Yes, it is a small part but it still indicates the general direction things are headed just the same. i.e. You will recreate when and where we tell you to recreate and take your work product in the process because we the government have determined that it is a privilege, is at our discretion and is and not your right.
I would be down for that! And why are we not protesting like the greenie hippies are everytime a tree gets cut down? why are we not sending more letters to Arnold and everyone else?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
cb77DEMELLO said:
Has it become to popular or have they closed down so many other trails we are all being pushed into smaller area's?
It's getting too popular. Rigs are getting more extreme, and there are more people getting into four-wheeling.

When I first ran the trail in the mid 90's, if you saw someone on 35" tires they were pretty hardcore!

Later,
....Mike
 

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Mike said:
It's getting too popular. Rigs are getting more extreme, and there are more people getting into four-wheeling.

When I first ran the trail in the mid 90's, if you saw someone on 35" tires they were pretty hardcore!

Later,
....Mike
Yeh your right it is! I don't want to be heard saying this out loud but if it keeps the trail clean and open, I'm not against a park fee or something like that, that will keep it open?>
 

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Well I am. What do they do with all the money now? How is it that the fix for all problems is always more money for some damn governmernt agency. The first thing that always pops into their minds to address any problem is to shove their shit hooks into yours and my pocket for more money. To me it seems like the more money they get their hands on the problems remain or get worse and we have just that much less money. Need an example or two? Take a good hard look at our roads and schools in this state. Think about that for a while then come back and tell me how a new fee is going to change anything for the better for us. If anything ,more money for any government agency just creates even more bureaucracy that needs to justify it's existance that in and of itself becomes a larger problem than the one you started with. The real answer is very simple, less government meddling and trail closures, and more open trails. That equates to less density and less of a problem. They only close trails to pander to the eviro weenies anyway. After all it is mostly public land be it county, state or federal and we, all of us are the public not them.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
cb77DEMELLO said:
Yeh your right it is! I don't want to be heard saying this out loud but if it keeps the trail clean and open, I'm not against a park fee or something like that, that will keep it open?>
No fees, ever. It's public land, and I pay taxes.

I also pick up trash. And I've picked up shit. Yes, other people's turds. I think I've earned my right to use my public land, any time I want, as long as I keep up my end of the bargain to use it in a responsible manner.

I don't want to pay fees so the government can hire more people to tell me where I can't go.

Like I said in another post, I am not opposed to permits, as long as they are free. They might be a good way to educate people, kinda like campfire permits. There should also be an unlimited number of permits issued.

None of this stuff is negotiable as far as I'm concerned.

Later,
....Mike
 

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Mike said:
No fees, ever. It's public land, and I pay taxes.

Later,
....Mike
You know, in principle, I agree with your stance on fees. But, with the vast funding shortage the land agencies are dealing with, fees seem to be the only way to generate money. The BRC has a decent policy on fees that I agree with.

BLUERIBBON COALITION
OFFICIAL ORGANIZATIONAL POLICIES AND POSITIONS


Existing budgets for the active management of public lands are not adequate to accomplish all the necessary work. In many cases, outside funding is critical to the success of number of programs. The BlueRibbon Coalition supports the continuation or establishment of OHV registration programs. We also support the dedication and use of fuel taxes on fuel used off highways for trail funding. In addition, we support development other enthusiast funded programs with the understanding that such funds will be used for the benefit of these specific user groups.

We support an increase of appropriated funds for recreation and trail management. We encourage agencies to place a high priority on funding recreation and trail activities. In areas, such as Wilderness and developed sites where funding is inadequate to maintain recreation experiences, and funding is not available from other user-supported programs, we support the implementation of user fees, subject to the following:

* Fees should be for a specific facility or discrete physical area, not just access to public land in general.
* Fees should be returned to the area from which they are collected.
* Distribution of funds to various projects should be done with full public involvement.
 

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Ursidae69 said:
You know, in principle, I agree with your stance on fees. But, with the vast funding shortage the land agencies are dealing with, fees seem to be the only way to generate money. The BRC has a decent policy on fees that I agree with.

BLUERIBBON COALITION
OFFICIAL ORGANIZATIONAL POLICIES AND POSITIONS
Its unclear how much of the fees go to the park. I'm trying to find some real data.


Entrance fees and recreation user fees for campgrounds and other activities are charged at nearly 170 national parks. In 1995, fee receipts totaled $80.5 million, of which 15 percent was retained by the NPS to help offset collection costs. The balance of receipts may be appropriated by Congress for operations in the following year.

http://www.doi.gov/pfm/ar5nps.html
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ursidae69 said:
You know, in principle, I agree with your stance on fees. But, with the vast funding shortage the land agencies are dealing with, fees seem to be the only way to generate money. The BRC has a decent policy on fees that I agree with.

BLUERIBBON COALITION
OFFICIAL ORGANIZATIONAL POLICIES AND POSITIONS
If 100% of the fees were applied towards keeping trails open, or opening new areas, I might agree with it.

Who's to say they won't use the money to set up more wilderness study areas, or waste it on a 10 year long investigation of the endangered Sierra Nevada Piss Ant, only to find out that it's not really endangered?

I pay taxes because I am legally required to, not because I agree with the amount, or what it is being spent on.

Later,
....Mike
 

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Ted said:
In 1995, fee receipts totaled $80.5 million, of which 15 percent was retained by the NPS to help offset collection costs.
Funny, the sierra club's budget for, I think, 2003 was, I think, 80 million. Too bad that money went to such a horrendously out of control group.
 
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