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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my opinion we are at a crossroads in the hobby/ sport of off-roading with the ever increasing popularity of high performance competition style rock buggies. I mean these to include vehicles built exclusively for off road, extreme trail use and are not street legal. As the popularity and technology of these machines increases so does the toll on our few remaining open trails. Take Moab for example, I can go out there in my Tacoma and wheel all over the place on the established system of trails and it is very challenging and fun. There are limits to a street legal vehicle plain and simple, I don’t have 44+" tires, 3' of articulation, rear steer, 450hp, full tube frame/ exo-cage etc. Therefore, I must challenge both myself and my vehicle by trying to negotiate a trail such as Golden Spike with skill and finesse.

In a Competition style rock buggy one can go practically anywhere one chooses, off of the trail, up sheer rock races, etc. while in the process of tearing up the rock, land, and environment. If you run "Hells Revenge" every rock shelf next to the trail over 2' tall is stained with black rubber and markings to "keep off". This is the kind of thing that is going to close Moab, the Rubicon, and other well known "classic" trails to vehicles of any kind. I guess in some vehicles the "official" trail isn’t hard enough? Well then get the fawk off of the sissy trails and head out to the Hammers or area BFE, don’t destroy the classics for the rest of us.

Events like Competition rock crawling and the new rock racing are great as long as their held in a controlled environment on private land. The newer generations of vehicles keep raising the ability level increasingly higher and that is fine if kept on a closed course or private land. This kind of destructive wheeling has no place on public land in my opinion. Otherwise, the trails will be lost to all of us "normal" folks who just want to wheel with our friends and families in a responsible manner. Keep the "comp." buggies in the competitions and leave the public trails to street legal vehicles I say.
 

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The same can be said for motorcycles capable of faster and faster speeds, cars capable of faster and faster speeds, snowmobiles that can climb straight up the face of a mountain, quads that can race up a wall of sand in a few seconds, private yachts that can cross the oceans or cruise at 100 mph, or privately owned jets that can break the speed of sound.

Just because these vehicles are capable of doing said things doesn't mean they can only do said things or will only do said things.

Don't chastize the vehicle; educate the operator.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The same can be said for motorcycles capable of faster and faster speeds, cars capable of faster and faster speeds, snowmobiles that can climb straight up the face of a mountain, quads that can race up a wall of sand n a few seconds, private yachts that can cross the oceans or cruise at 100 mph, or privately owned jets that can break the speed of sound.

Just because these vehicles are capable of doing said things doesn't mean they can only do said things or will only do said things.

Don't chastize the vehicle; educate the operator.[/QUOTE

True, but you get the basic idea. More people = more problems. Theres a reason why you cant drive a monster truck down the freeway or land a helicopter at McDonalds too. Just because you happen to have something doesnt mean you should be able to use it anywhere you please.
 

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In my opinion we are at a crossroads in the hobby/ sport of off-roading with the ever increasing popularity of high performance competition style rock buggies. I mean these to include vehicles built exclusively for off road, extreme trail use and are not street legal. As the popularity and technology of these machines increases so does the toll on our few remaining open trails. Take Moab for example, I can go out there in my Tacoma and wheel all over the place on the established system of trails and it is very challenging and fun. There are limits to a street legal vehicle plain and simple, I don’t have 44+" tires, 3' of articulation, rear steer, 450hp, full tube frame/ exo-cage etc. Therefore, I must challenge both myself and my vehicle by trying to negotiate a trail such as Golden Spike with skill and finesse.

In a Competition style rock buggy one can go practically anywhere one chooses, off of the trail, up sheer rock races, etc. while in the process of tearing up the rock, land, and environment. If you run "Hells Revenge" every rock shelf next to the trail over 2' tall is stained with black rubber and markings to "keep off". This is the kind of thing that is going to close Moab, the Rubicon, and other well known "classic" trails to vehicles of any kind. I guess in some vehicles the "official" trail isn’t hard enough? Well then get the fawk off of the sissy trails and head out to the Hammers or area BFE, don’t destroy the classics for the rest of us.

Events like Competition rock crawling and the new rock racing are great as long as their held in a controlled environment on private land. The newer generations of vehicles keep raising the ability level increasingly higher and that is fine if kept on a closed course or private land. This kind of destructive wheeling has no place on public land in my opinion. Otherwise, the trails will be lost to all of us "normal" folks who just want to wheel with our friends and families in a responsible manner. Keep the "comp." buggies in the competitions and leave the public trails to street legal vehicles I say.
I agree because I'm not into that sort of extreme offroading, it just seems that most of the skill is taken out of the sport and replaced with shear size and power. However, I don't want to piss on the parade of others who that is their idea of the sport, I just think like us "street-legal offroaders" everyone has to respect the sport and the land enough to realize where their rig should and shouldn't be. It is different for everyones rig IMHO.

Don't chastize the vehicle; educate the operator.
Totally agree, resembles gun control don't it?

True, but you get the basic idea. More people = more problems. Theres a reason why you cant drive a monster truck down the freeway or land a helicopter at McDonalds too. Just because you happen to have something doesnt mean you should be able to use it anywhere you please.
I agree.
 

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True, but you get the basic idea. More people = more problems. Theres a reason why you cant drive a monster truck down the freeway or land a helicopter at McDonalds too. Just because you happen to have something doesnt mean you should be able to use it anywhere you please.
It is still not a problem of the vehicle but a problem of the individual user.

An unprepared vehicle can also do more damage with tire spin, scraping of the rocks, etc.
 

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The same can be said for motorcycles capable of faster and faster speeds, cars capable of faster and faster speeds, snowmobiles that can climb straight up the face of a mountain, quads that can race up a wall of sand in a few seconds, private yachts that can cross the oceans or cruise at 100 mph, or privately owned jets that can break the speed of sound.

Just because these vehicles are capable of doing said things doesn't mean they can only do said things or will only do said things.

Don't chastize the vehicle; educate the operator.
Oh! what a slippery slope to walk…

When I first read this thread, I took a mild amount of offense as I am in the planning/collecting stages of building a rock crawler/buggie. But instead of jumping to conclusions as most would like to do, I reread and re-evaluated what was being said. (which I encourage all to do with threads they do not totally agree with)

In re-evaluating, I have to admit I agree with you (AK98Taco)the most. It is not totally the vehicles fault, but more the operators.

More education would be a start, but in my personal experience, the beligereint (sp?) or offensive operators are not concerned with listening to reason…just merely enjoying their form of instant gradifaction.

about a year ago or so, I was on a run before I had my solid axle installed. I was the least built rig in the group yet I was able to keep up by determining which obsticle I could execute and which I could not. But my point being is this. There was a "monster" jeep in the group. This thing was awesome in the fact that it was unstoppable. Large powerful engine, 42" tires, fully caged, double and divorced transfer case. Definitely a trailer rig…not for road use in the slightest. But the awesomeness of the rig quickly wore off from me, when the driver kept going off trail "because he could" he was running over sapplings without batting an eye about it. Churning up deep ruts through the mud merely because he had the power out of the engine to keep pulling himself, where as a less built rig would have been stuck easily. Needless to say I did not enjoy that run as much as I typically enjoy them merely because of the damage this one vehicle was causing. And all this was on private land, so it "made it okay" (that was the comment I got when I finally did speak up about the carniage the rig was producing)

I can only use myself as an example here. When I first started on the trails, I was always more of the eco-nazi type. I was and still am to an extent more concerned about tearing up the lands and ecosystems where I wheel. But I also enjoy progressively harder obsticles which means more effort thus possible more damage I produce.

So I must ask myself…where is the line? most of the time I can see it, other times I cross it without realizing it.

But I am digressing. my point being with building the rock crawler is more noble, I feel than what I see others using them for. I agree to some extent, building an indestructable rig (yet however impossible the task is)does allow the operator to have less skill, but sometimes or alot of the times the rig was built because the operator out grew their previous rigs. But whatever the case maybe. Alot of the time crawler operators are more errogant not because of their rigs, but because they were always that way and will never change. I am not saying all crawlers are this type so dont jump on that band wagon. But a lot are merely out of character flaw and privilage.

It is just like in my profession. I have always had to struggle to compete with the person that had the money going into the trade. I have had to scrape the funds together for the better equipment just to compete. When a new photog comes into the market with deep pockets and can throw the coin around to buy the equipment I have struggled to purchase. Alot of the time I have more talent and could perform the job. yet they get the job because they have the better equipment and the marketing dollar to land the client. Again I digress!

I am building my "buggie" not because I want to climb the "unclimbable" I am building one to save my current truck, while also using the rock buggie to educatemy children with a safer, better vehicle I can trust them in. I will be the first one to chastize my son for taking a damaging line. but in the same breathe I will also be the one encouraging him to push himself in the built rig. Knowing that I will still be able to drive my truck to work the next day because the vehicle torn up is the purpose built one.
 

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lots of stuff bashing rock buggy's etc...(not ment as a bash, just cliffs notes:D )
It is the operator not the rock buggy that is responsable. Saying rock buggys destroy land is like saying guns kill people. Those are silly statements. A gun won't kill any one unless there is someone pulling the trigger just like a rock buggy won;t peel out on sensitive habbitat if no one is behind the wheel.
I understand that you don't like fawktards driving off the trail, no one likes it, but don't blame it on rock buggys, I would say that there is far more damage done to sensitive areas by "stock to mildly moddified vehicals" than is done by rock buggys.
The driver is the problem, and since there are countless stupid people in the world there will always be people doing stupid things. Unless we kill all people we will never be rid of stupidity. The best thing we can do is try to educate everyone you see on the trails about the importance of treading lightly. So in closing:
rock buggys good, fawking idiots bad. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Im not saying I dont like buggies, nor do I want to get rid of them. Im saying everything has its place and alot of the local 4x4 trails probably arent that place. The same goes for green sticker vehicles, they need their areas too but those areas do not necessarily have to be 4x4 trails. For example, I dont take my rig out to Glamis and try to tear up the dunes, thats the green sticker vehicles playground not mine.

i.e. Comp. buggy = "competition" not ripping up most of the trails in Moab or the Rubicon, which is a county road believe it or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Since you guys are missing my point and like to use gun analagies here goes...

I like to shoot and I am a member of a rifle range. Its a nice place to shoot, has tables, trees, pistol, rifle, trap, skeet, etc. but I like shooting tank rounds. So I bought an M1 Abrahms tank and am going to drive over a few trees and tables and park it out there next to the guy teaching his 5 year old daughter to shoot a .22 on the rifle line. Loose a few depeleted uranium rounds downrange ya know... Its not the tanks fault, but this is American damnit and I'll do as I please.

Now do you get the point I was trying to make? Personally I dont care if people agree with me or not. That is not what this is about, its about raising awareness and finding solutions.
 

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Isnt this what you meant to say :rolleyes:
No it's not but thats really cute. :rolleyes:
You say rock buggys cause most of the damage. You are correct in that they do cause damage because many fools that drive them think they can go any where. The same fools drive stock trucks and think they can go anywhere as well and tear upp all kinds of shit too. But a rock buggy should be allowed on any trail its the driver that dictates what the rock buggy does.

As soon as you ban rock buggys from the trails kiss our access good bye. It will just become easier and easier for the greenies to keep our "street legal" rigs off the trail. Slippery slope.
Wheelers need to stick together if we are to keep our access. You need to educate the people not ban rock buggys.
 

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I can't really agree or disagree with you on this particular post, as I have never wheeled that far west. I really don't know what you mean by green sticker vehicles.

but yes I had heard that Moeb was actually a county road. I always thought that was actually pretty cool!

But to address one of your first comments in this post I am replying to. Everything probably does have its own place. but who is to say where each place is? For that matter, in my neck of the "woods" rock crawlers really don't have many if any places to rock crawl here in the midwest. But I sure see a whole bunch of them.

I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but there is only one phrase that comes to mind currently: "Don't hate the game, hate the playa"

I am not sure if this is on topic or not, but let me ask you this? How do you feel about the time trials held each year on the salt flats? Vehicles are built specifically for them, yet I can't imagine there is not ecological damage being done out there since the first day they ran them.

(disclaimer: I have always hated that term I used above, but for once it does seem appropriate)
 

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Since you guys are missing my point and like to use gun analagies here goes...

I like to shoot and I am a member of a rifle range. Its a nice place to shoot, has tables, trees, pistol, rifle, trap, skeet, etc. But I like shooting tank rounds so I got an A1 Abrahms and am going to go park it out there next to the guy teaching his 5 year old daughter to shoot on the rifle line and put a few depeleted uranium rounds downrange. Its not the tanks fault, but this is American damnit and I'll do as I please.

Now do you get the point I was trying to make? Personally I dont care if people agree with me or not. That is not what this is about, its about raising awareness and finding solutions.
Your point is not taken. A tank is not a safe thing to fire around civilians at a public place. On the other hand a rock buggy is perfectly safe to drive on the trail with any one around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
No it's not but thats really cute. :rolleyes:
You say rock buggys cause most of the damage. You are correct in that they do cause damage because many fools that drive them think they can go any where. The same fools drive stock trucks and think they can go anywhere as well and tear upp all kinds of shit too. But a rock buggy should be allowed on any trail its the driver that dictates what the rock buggy does.

As soon as you ban rock buggys from the trails kiss our access good bye. It will just become easier and easier for the greenies to keep our "street legal" rigs off the trail. Slippery slope.
Wheelers need to stick together if we are to keep our access. You need to educate the people not ban rock buggys.
I never said anything about bannng rock buggies, doesnt anyone read anymore? Where did I ever say "ban rock buggies"?
 

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I never said anything about bannng rock buggies, doesnt anyone read anymore? Where did I ever say "ban rock buggies"?
see my comment in my first post about re-reading and re-evaluating information taken in.:D
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I can't really agree or disagree with you on this particular post, as I have never wheeled that far west. I really don't know what you mean by green sticker vehicles.

but yes I had heard that Moeb was actually a county road. I always thought that was actually pretty cool!

But to address one of your first comments in this post I am replying to. Everything probably does have its own place. but who is to say where each place is? For that matter, in my neck of the "woods" rock crawlers really don't have many if any places to rock crawl here in the midwest. But I sure see a whole bunch of them.

I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but there is only one phrase that comes to mind currently: "Don't hate the game, hate the playa"

I am not sure if this is on topic or not, but let me ask you this? How do you feel about the time trials held each year on the salt flats? Vehicles are built specifically for them, yet I can't imagine there is not ecological damage being done out there since the first day they ran them.

(disclaimer: I have always hated that term I used above, but for once it does seem appropriate)
Interesting point of view Bear. I love Bonneville and the speed trials. I have done work in the past on a couple of Don Vesco's streamliner race cars as a matter of fact. I also love motorcylces and atv's and dune buggies (green sticker vehicles) as well as rock buggies. I wish I had one of each. However, If I were to show up at the Bonneville Speed Trials with a Caterpiller front end loader, sign up, drop my bucket and proceed to destroy the course I dont think many would like that. Its obviously not the Cat's fault, but thats what I wanted to do. That is why they dont let front end loaders race at Bonneville.
 

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While it is interesting to me to watch the 5 second snippets on Sunday morning TV of competition buggies gnarling obstacles on closed courses, I have no use for them on the trail with me.

There is the hobby/pastime and there is the sport. In the past, the hobby drove the sport. In my opinion, the hobby now takes a backseat to the sport. The sport has evolved into being a showcase for vendor's products and encouraging others to emulate the expense and garishness of these vehicles which are impractical for the majority of off-roaders.

This is no different than what happened in every other form of motorsport, or any sport for that matter. There is nothing anyone can do about the expense except for setting personal limits.

As far as sharing the trails, that is a choice that each person has to make. I enjoy off-roading as a way to get away from work and the city, to get to a long, quiet trial or a secluded river, lake or mountain. I enjoy a more leisurely form of recreation, and frankly have no interest in wheeling with some hacked together beater with giant tires and no muffler (common) or even a well-built buggy (uncommon). Covering territory, running trails and seeing/experiencing nature interests me much more than watching people try to overcome the same damn rock pile for an hour.

Packing up and getting away, not damaging where I've been, and coming back at the end are all I want to worry about.

It is an individual choice in where you go and what you do, and I don't see an easy answer other than individuals deciding what they really want from their off-roading experience and who they want to share it with.
 
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