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Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
While it is interesting to me to watch the 5 second snippets on Sunday morning TV of competition buggies gnarling obstacles on closed courses, I have no use for them on the trail with me.

There is the hobby/pastime and there is the sport. In the past, the hobby drove the sport. In my opinion, the hobby now takes a backseat to the sport. The sport has evolved into being a showcase for vendor's products and encouraging others to emulate the expense and garishness of these vehicles which are impractical for the majority of off-roaders.

This is no different than what happened in every other form of motorsport, or any sport for that matter. There is nothing anyone can do about the expense except for setting personal limits.

As far as sharing the trails, that is a choice that each person has to make. I enjoy off-roading as a way to get away from work and the city, to get to a long, quiet trial or a secluded river, lake or mountain. I enjoy a more leisurely form of recreation, and frankly have no interest in wheeling with some hacked together beater with giant tires and no muffler (common) or even a well-built buggy (uncommon). Covering territory, running trails and seeing/experiencing nature interests me much more than watching people try to overcome the same damn rock pile for an hour.

Packing up and getting away, not damaging where I've been, and coming back at the end are all I want to worry about.

It is an individual choice in where you go and what you do, and I don't see an easy answer other than individuals deciding what they really want from their off-roading experience and who they want to share it with.
Well said, wheeling used to be simple, man, 4x4, and trail. Now some events are starting to resemble a NASCAR event. All Im saying is I dont want to lose the Rubicon or Hells Revenge because of a few fat cats bringing out their race buggies and tearing stuff up any more than the buggy guys want me getting in their way on the super tough trails or in a competition.
 
I never said anything about bannng rock buggies, doesnt anyone read anymore? Where did I ever say "ban rock buggies"?
you didn't?

Keep the "comp." buggies in the competitions and leave the public trails to street legal vehicles I say.
Since 99.9% of rock buggys are not street legal I'd say thats just what you said.;)
 
Well said, wheeling used to be simple, man, 4x4, and trail. Now some events are starting to resemble a NASCAR event. All Im saying is I dont want to lose the Rubicon or Hells Revenge because of a few fat cats bringing out their race buggies and tearing stuff up any more than the buggy guys want me getting in their way on the super tough trails or in a competition.
That is so true.

The Land Cruiser world is a prime example- at damn near every event, if you don't have an FJ-40 that's built by Proffitt's, sprung-over, SBC powered, full-width D60, running beadlocks & 40" tires, you are a second class citizen.

You spend your day on the trail trying to either get around them because they all parked their rigs on the trail to watch someone beat a rig against the same rock for an hour, or waiting while they are invariably welding or winching or taking 1,000 pictures.

So you end up with a bunch of rich n00bs taking over the whole event, but when it's over it's the little guys on 33's running the trails one more time to pick up trash and making the last pass through camp to clean it up before they drive their rigs home.

Meanwhile, the trailer queens are safely loaded on their trailers behind their behemoth RV's and halfway home.

I have no interest in those type of events.
 
originally Posted by mojavehanna
I never said anything about bannng rock buggies, doesnt anyone read anymore? Where did I ever say "ban rock buggies"?

you didn't?


Originally Posted by mojavehanna
Keep the "comp." buggies in the competitions and leave the public trails to street legal vehicles I say.

Since 99.9% of rock buggys are not street legal I'd say thats just what you said.;)
I realize you didn't say ban them completely, you don't want them on public trails, but if you restrict them to only competition you take away a large part of the sport of 4 wheeling. Thus you will loose enthusiests. (sp) We can't afford to loose to many 4 wheelers before it will become easier for eco nazi's to close public land to all. Thats not what I want.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
That is so true.

The Land Cruiser world is a prime example- at damn near every event, if you don't have an FJ-40 that's built by Proffitt's, sprung-over, SBC powered, full-width D60, running beadlocks & 40" tires, you are a second class citizen.

You spend your day on the trail trying to either get around them because they all parked their rigs on the trail to watch someone beat a rig against the same rock for an hour, or waiting while they are invariably welding or winching or taking 1,000 pictures.

So you end up with a bunch of rich n00bs taking over the whole event, but when it's over it's the little guys on 33's running the trails one more time to pick up trash and making the last pass through camp to clean it up before they drive their rigs home.

Meanwhile, the trailer queens are safely loaded on their trailers behind their behemoth RV's and halfway home.

I have no interest in those type of events.
Me neither fawk them in the neck with a plastic spork.
 
Oh... you got me. The fatal blow... fading fast... goodby cruel thread ;)
Well you said you didn't say it, I just pointed out that you did. If thats not what you ment just say it. I'm not trying to deliver the "fatal blow" to your thread. :rolleyes: I am just pointing out the problems I see in that coarse of action, but it looks like my thoughts have fallen on deaf ears.
 
Not true A bald spinning 31 won't do as much damage as a 44 bogger especially in the mud. I could sit there all day and not dig a hole as deep as a 44 bogger could in 30 seconds in the mud which is one of the issues in places I've wheeled. In the rocks well a 31 inch open diff vehicle won't get you deep enough to cause as much trouble as a fully locked rock buggy on 37's. Yes it's the responsibility of the user but what you've said is basically saying a BB gun will do as much damage as a fully automatic machine gun. It's just not true.
A 44 that is idling through a hole is not doing as much damage as a 31 that is spinning in the hole, throwing mud, and not going anywhere.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Well you said you didn't say it, I just pointed out that you did. If thats not what you ment just say it. I'm not trying to deliver the "fatal blow" to your thread. :rolleyes: I am just pointing out the problems I see in that coarse of action, but it looks like my thoughts have fallen on deaf ears.
No, I just cant spend every minute of the day on ttora... sheesh!

Ok, lets summarize. Rock buggies OK just dont drive them irresponsibly.
 
That is so true.

The Land Cruiser world is a prime example- at damn near every event, if you don't have an FJ-40 that's built by Proffitt's, sprung-over, SBC powered, full-width D60, running beadlocks & 40" tires, you are a second class citizen.

You spend your day on the trail trying to either get around them because they all parked their rigs on the trail to watch someone beat a rig against the same rock for an hour, or waiting while they are invariably welding or winching or taking 1,000 pictures.

So you end up with a bunch of rich n00bs taking over the whole event, but when it's over it's the little guys on 33's running the trails one more time to pick up trash and making the last pass through camp to clean it up before they drive their rigs home.

Meanwhile, the trailer queens are safely loaded on their trailers behind their behemoth RV's and halfway home.

I have no interest in those type of events.
So what you saying is that these rich nOOb's shouldn't be allowed at "the" event?

For the record I'm not one of the rich nOOb's but I well never feel I have the power to determine who & how people are allowed to enjoy themselves as long as it is legal.

At the events I have attended you have stock to full built rigs and the attendees go on the type of run they enjoy. If a buggy is on an easy trail it was because they just wanted to relax and see the scenery not try and blaze obstacles were they don't belong.

In my experience the people doing this are a bunch of asshats and would do it with a stock rig or a buggy regardless - they think it is cool to be an asshole.
 
No, I just cant spend every minute of the day on ttora... sheesh!

Ok, lets summarize. Rock buggies OK just dont drive them irresponsibly.
You responded to other posts of mine without noticing what I had said, you just wanted to tell me I miss read what you said. So I assumed that you did not read what I was saying, hence the falling on deaf ears comment.

I like your summery, thats what I have been trying to say. :) I would change just one small detail, I would replace OK with GREAT but thats just me. :D :p
 
Yeah because everyone who runs 44's loves to "idle" through holes. I see that happening a lot. Once I get my frame off the ground b/c I'm stuck in a rut made by some huge tire and I've got 4 in the air let's see how much damage they cause. Same as a comp. rock crawler that stays on the noobie trails and never spins a tire. It doesn't happen. You woldn't build a bogger or a 4 linked rig if you were going to do that.
I'm comparing tires to tires, not driving styles, as this thread ignores driving style and driver's will.

Back in AK we have a lot of problems with rigs that can't get through a trail without a lot of wheel spin, which displaces soil. Rigs with larger tires and the proper traction devices don't need to spin their tires to get through the same obstacles, thus they don't displace the soil.
 
and all this while I was feeling guilty for riding my 26"x2.5" tires (mountain bike) after a rain...

I guess it all depends on where you go, and what your values are.

If you are traveling across soft surfaces after a rain (whether you are in a rock buggy or on foot) you will leave evidence of your passing. If you don't believe me, then look a little closer.

The real question is not whether you have an impact, but instead whether your impact is significant. Whether or not your passing has a significant lasting impact is dependent both the population of people following you, and also on the values of those who follow you.

So if you are only ever followed by 2 people who don't mind a trail/creek/hill slope that is torn to hell, then your rock buggy has left no significant impact. but if I walk barefoot across a delicate meadow in a popular, sensitive alpine wilderness, then I will have pissed off a whole lot of people.

I will agree that a machine cannot be faulted, only the machine operator; and the few typically ruin it for the many... Thanks mojavehanna for bringing up a touchy subject. Too bad the parties most responsible for off-trail vegetative and geomorphological damage will never read this thread.


The only act of true environmentalism is to shoot yourself in the head.
-Edward Abby
 
Cheap Thrills said:
So what you saying is that these rich nOOb's shouldn't be allowed at "the" event?
No sir, I am not. Those are your words, not mine, and are based on your assumptions.

Cheap Thrills said:
For the record I'm not one of the rich nOOb's but I well never feel I have the power to determine who & how people are allowed to enjoy themselves as long as it is legal.
I never said I felt I had the power to determine who & how people are allowed to enjoy themselves. I do wish those with the attitude problems wouldn't base experience and credibility on tire size or wallet size. Also, it would be beneficial if everyone new to the trails (especially with rigs capable of causing greater damage) didn't decide that their internet research and their bank account exempts them from listening, learning and being respectful of others and the property they are using.

Cheap Thrills said:
At the events I have attended you have stock to full built rigs and the attendees go on the type of run they enjoy. If a buggy is on an easy trail it was because they just wanted to relax and see the scenery not try and blaze obstacles were they don't belong.
In utopia, maybe. Unfortunately, my experience has been different. First off, I never said I encountered them on the easy trails- that is an assumption you made. Furthermore, many of those testosterone buggys that are are on the easy trails are there to simply give their owners something "smaller" to roll by and feel good about their "investment".

Cheap Thrills said:
In my experience the people doing this are a bunch of asshats and would do it with a stock rig or a buggy regardless - they think it is cool to be an asshole.
That is a very true statement. However, what some in this thread are trying to overlook/ignore is that those vehicles, in inexperienced/immature hands, do in fact dig deeper ruts and cause greater destruction than more conservatively equipped vehicles.
 
That is a very true statement. However, what some in this thread are trying to overlook/ignore is that those vehicles, in inexperienced/immature hands, do in fact dig deeper ruts and cause greater destruction than more conservatively equipped vehicles.
It still comes down to the operator. You could do plenty of damage in a stocker running over trees, digging ruts, etc. You could do a large amount of damage in a buggy too. All damage caused is a result of the operator's input to the rig. A stocker or rock buggy both easily do enough damage from one fawktard fest to cause the trail to be closed. Just because the buggy can get further down the trail doesn't mean a stocker can't cause damage early on a trail.

As off road enthusiasts we all need to stick together if we are going to have a chance to survive the eco nazi onslaught. This means every one including street legal rigs, buggys, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, quads, etc. The minute we start resticting any one type of user the easier it will be to shut us down for good.:2cents:
(Yes I realize I said this before, I just feel it is very important)
 
Dude, re-read what I said. :rolleyes:

"in inexperienced/immature hands"

1. Yes, ultimate responsibility is with the operator.
2. No one has said stockers or rigs with tires smaller than "X" don't cause damage.

The problem that you and others keep obscuring by trying to argue these points (that are not in dispute) is the fact that there is a point (I don't know where) that a vehicle is too much for the driver and/or too much for the trail.

There is no easy solution, so I just try to avoid them... by going out of MY way, inconveniencing ME and infringing on MY rights to the property; but it's what I have to do to aviod the selfish, discourteous trail hogs and property trashers.

I'll continue to seek out wheeling opportunities in more remote areas with better drivers operating "lesser" rigs, thank you.
 
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