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Discussion starter · #41 ·
The problem that you and others keep obscuring by trying to argue these points (that are not in dispute) is the fact that there is a point (I don't know where) that a vehicle is too much for the driver and/or too much for the trail.

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Valkyrie, that is what I was trying to say but I got tired of e-debateing the issue.

On a side note, there is a thread right now on the possibility of Moab losing vast areas of trails and only a couple people even cared to reply. That is what Im talking about, more people care about their rigs than the trails they drive them on.
 
Dude, re-read what I said. :rolleyes:

"in inexperienced/immature hands"

1. Yes, ultimate responsibility is with the operator.
2. No one has said stockers or rigs with tires smaller than "X" don't cause damage.

The problem that you and others keep obscuring by trying to argue these points (that are not in dispute) is the fact that there is a point (I don't know where) that a vehicle is too much for the driver and/or too much for the trail.

There is no easy solution, so I just try to avoid them... by going out of MY way, inconveniencing ME and infringing on MY rights to the property; but it's what I have to do to aviod the selfish, discourteous trail hogs and property trashers.

I'll continue to seek out wheeling opportunities in more remote areas with better drivers operating "lesser" rigs, thank you.
I read what you said. I agree that in the hands of a lesser experianced / educated person a rock buggy could potentialy be more destructive. I figured that was pretty much a given, I guess I didn't post that though. The main point that I am making is that any vehical can be destructive enough to close trails with an inexperianced/uneducated driver behind the wheel. Don't hate the rigs, hate the retards who drive them irresponsibly.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
I think we can all agree that we ALL need to work together to increase knowledge among ALL the users of the land or we will lose these areas.

It doesnt matter who is out there in what doing burnouts, digging holes, tossing beer cans and trash, and taking a dump on the side of the trail. We All need to try to correct these bad behaviors when we see them happening.
 
I think we can all agree that we ALL need to work together to increase knowledge among ALL the users of the land or we will lose these areas.

It doesnt matter who is out there in what doing burnouts, digging holes, tossing beer cans and trash, and taking a dump on the side of the trail. We All need to try to correct these bad behaviors when we see them happening.
I agree! It is not the vehicle but the lack of knowledge and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY that is ultimately the problem.
 
On a side note, there is a thread right now on the possibility of Moab losing vast areas of trails and only a couple people even cared to reply. That is what Im talking about, more people care about their rigs than the trails they drive them on.
I sent a letter to Dick Durbin last week regarding the Red Rock Wilderness Act.
 
No sir, I am not. Those are your words, not mine, and are based on your assumptions.
I re-read you original post regarding the "rich nOObs" and I apologize - words mean things - and when you put something down in words it is up for interpretation and I got it wrong. The way I interpret it now, you meant that you didn't like the events that include these types of people and that is totally your prerogative. Again I'm sorry.

That is a very true statement. However, what some in this thread are trying to overlook/ignore is that those vehicles, in inexperienced/immature hands, do in fact dig deeper ruts and cause greater destruction than more conservatively equipped vehicles.
I don't believe that they are trying to overlook/ignore the obvious re: what a large tire on a high horse power machine can do to the land. What we/I are trying to point out is that if you start to limit what kind a vehicle is allowed it just becomes that much easier to not allow any vehicles. It all boils down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and that is what is lacking in our society on way to many levels...IMHO
 
…If I were to show up at the Bonneville Speed Trials with a Caterpiller front end loader, sign up, drop my bucket and proceed to destroy the course I dont think many would like that. Its obviously not the Cat's fault, but thats what I wanted to do. That is why they dont let front end loaders race at Bonneville.
great analogy!:rofl:

I see your point. But wouldn't your reaction be the same if someone showed up to a rock crawling event with a toyota camry?

What I am saying is people build rigs specific for the type of event they want to participate in. There for the same arguement could be made that all drag cars should be banned because they make too much noise and produce too much horsepower opposed to a regular street vehicle.

this was the first example I came up with because I live 5 miles away from ORP where they hold the NHRA National drag races and every year in September my neighborhood "roars" from the noise coming from the race track. It drives some of my neighbors crazy. But I just tell them if you don't like it, you move…the track was here first. I personally love the noise and my son has fun trying to guess what class they are running by the sounds.

I think that made sense. I am just trying to hold an intelligent conversation here which is hard for me since I am handycapped in the intelligence department;)
 
Sorry I can't agree with you.

Public land is just that, public. When you start out with this kind of thought process you are no different than the Sierra clubbers. Who is the judge of which segments of the public is allowed access public land, you, them, who? Where does the concept of public (all inclusive) end and special interest start? Once you begin to set aside some of the public, it is no longer public. Therefore you should be OK with it if some segments want to exclude you too.

All you are really doing is saying that you are a better judge than they are simply because you are only concerned with your own interests and what you consider right, wrong or proper. In other words you've sit yourself up as a judge over others and drew an arbitrary line in the sand, just like the Eco Nazis have. In short, you've tarred yourself with your own brush. Instead of thinking, you're reacting.

It's yet another slippery slope. In this respect it's no different than second amendment arguments.
 
Actually Dick, I think you may have read more into that than what I wrote.

I have been careful to not call for the abolishment of any type of vehicle or any official segregating of anything.

In my first post, I said “There is nothing anyone can do about the expense except for setting personal limits” (emphasis mine), and ended with “It is an individual choice in where you go and what you do, and I don't see an easy answer other than individuals deciding what they really want from their off-roading experience and who they want to share it with” (emphassi mine).

Finally, in post #42 I had to explain myself yet again, and took the opportunity to try and clarify myself once and for all… “I never said I felt I had the power to determine who & how people are allowed to enjoy themselves.”

From the outset, my two points were that:

1. Ignorant people cause damage, and the larger the vehicle they operate the greater the damage that can be caused.
2. The only way I know how to get the message across while preserving my same rights to the property is to be more selective in where and with whom I wheel, and avoiding events that seem to attract that contingent I’d rather not wheel with.

I do judge people. I judge whether their recreational use of our shared property fits with my desired use of the same. If it doesn’t, I strike off on my own at my own inconvenience. The side benefit of fleeing the “party crashers” is that self-reliant, expeditionary wheeling has given me some of the best off-road experiences I’ve ever had. :)

I just hope that the large scale abuses from the monster buggy "irrational exuberance" do not cause the closure the recreation areas I’ve been finding refuge in. :(
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
Sorry I can't agree with you.

Public land is just that, public. When you start out with this kind of thought process you are no different than the Sierra clubbers. Who is the judge of which segments of the public is allowed access public land, you, them, who? Where does the concept of public (all inclusive) end and special interest start? Once you begin to set aside some of the public, it is no longer public. Therefore you should be OK with it if some segments want to exclude you too.

All you are really doing is saying that you are a better judge than they are simply because you are only concerned with your own interests and what you consider right, wrong or proper. In other words you've sit yourself up as a judge over others and drew an arbitrary line in the sand, just like the Eco Nazis have. In short, you've tarred yourself with your own brush. Instead of thinking, you're reacting.

It's yet another slippery slope. In this respect it's no different than second amendment arguments.
Yup, deffinately makes you think. I guess Ive just seen too many Psycho buggy/ truggies/ jeep buggies tearing up shit lately and demanding I get out of their way while I poke my way down a trail. And yes, Chris Im usually the one tossing their beer cans that thet left on the trail in my bed. And these are the same guys that will get mad at my group if we have to stack a rock or two, while their rig just tore down half of the waterfall.
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
Actually Dick, I think you may have read more into that than what I wrote.

I have been careful to not call for the abolishment of any type of vehicle or any official segregating of anything.

In my first post, I said “There is nothing anyone can do about the expense except for setting personal limits” (emphasis mine), and ended with “It is an individual choice in where you go and what you do, and I don't see an easy answer other than individuals deciding what they really want from their off-roading experience and who they want to share it with” (emphassi mine).

Finally, in post #42 I had to explain myself yet again, and took the opportunity to try and clarify myself once and for all… “I never said I felt I had the power to determine who & how people are allowed to enjoy themselves.”

From the outset, my two points were that:

1. Ignorant people cause damage, and the larger the vehicle they operate the greater the damage that can be caused.
2. The only way I know how to get the message across while preserving my same rights to the property is to be more selective in where and with whom I wheel, and avoiding events that seem to attract that contingent I’d rather not wheel with.

I do judge people. I judge whether their recreational use of our shared property fits with my desired use of the same. If it doesn’t, I strike off on my own at my own inconvenience. The side benefit of fleeing the “party crashers” is that self-reliant, expeditionary wheeling has given me some of the best off-road experiences I’ve ever had. :)

I just hope that the large scale abuses from the monster buggy "irrational exuberance" do not cause the closure the recreation areas I’ve been finding refuge in. :(
My sentiments exactly.
 
well i couldnt agree more with what mojavehanna is saying(first time for everything) up until now ive thought you were a complete D***K but i agree with what you are talking about, educating the guys the full tilt rock buggies. they seem to get bored on the trails and will pick some random rock of the trail and feel they need to conquer it. table mesa near phx is a prime example of this. dont get me wrong i have freinds that have the bitchin rock buggies, and have never seen them tearing up sh*t off the trail, instead they like to see how many trails they can do in one day.
 
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