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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone watch the hearings last night on CSPAN? Well, when I say hearings I should say it was more like 3 executives begging for billions of dollars (probably so they could pay off their private jets and summer homes). There were actually some interesting points brought up from the Senators/panel. 2 points that I thought were very interesting were one Senator asked the CEO's why they feel they should be making 5,6 or even 7 times the amount of money that the CEO's of the foreign automakers make. Not one of them had an answer. Also brought up was why would it be fair for Ford, GM and Chrysler to be receiving billions of dollars of tax money that would basically be coming from competing auto makers such as Honda, Toyota, Suzuki etc. because those companies pay millions in taxes every year. Again, no answer. I'm glad that they got their money for 1 reason and 1 reason only. The jobs that would of been lost by American workers if the bailout would of fell through. Otherwise, I wish they would of said we can't give you anything. Build a better product and make the changes necessary to run a profitable business and things will work itself out. There is no way that any CEO of any company should be making upwards of 17 million a year. No F'in way. This didn't just happen over night. They knew this was coming for years but yet at the last minute they ask for 34 billion dollars like it's chump change. They should of told the CEOs to tap into the millions of dollars in their bank accounts and bail themselves out.
 

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One of the panel members asked all the execs if they'd flown in on a commercial flight. No answer. Then he asked if any execs planned to sell their private jets and drive home in a effort to curtail spending. No answer. They asked if the amount of the bailout would be enough to save the industry and the execs replied that they hadn't done enough research to give a definite answer.

Fuck the big 3.
 

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There is no way that any CEO of any company should be making upwards of 17 million a year. Thats a friggin joke.
Speaking of which, Michelle Obama made 11+million in 07 as one of 9 CEO's of some paper company in Ill. 9 x 11= 99 million dollars.

Yep. Just common folk.
 

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Anyone watch the hearings last night on CSPAN? Well, when I say hearings I should say it was more like 3 executives begging for billions of dollars (probably so they could pay off their private jets and summer homes). There were actually some interesting points brought up from the Senators/panel. 2 points that I thought were very interesting were one Senator asked the CEO's why they feel they should be making 5,6 or even 7 times the amount of money that the CEO's of the foreign automakers make. Not one of them had an answer. Also brought up was why would it be fair for Ford, GM and Chrysler to be receiving billions of dollars of tax money that would basically be coming from competing auto makers such as Honda, Toyota, Suzuki etc. because those companies pay millions in taxes every year. Again, no answer. I'm glad that they got their money for 1 reason and 1 reason only. The jobs that would of been lost by American workers if the bailout would of fell through. Otherwise, I wish they would of said we can't give you anything. Build a better product and make the changes necessary to run a profitable business and things will work itself out. There is no way that any CEO of any company should be making upwards of 17 million a year. Thats a friggin joke.
I dont thinkt they should have gotten anything. This is bull shit that the american tax payer is having to pay for their dumb ass mistakes. Build better vehicles, dont pay your executives as much, give better employee benifits, so on and so forth. Bull shit if you ask me. Suzuki is owned by general motors.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Suzuki isn't owned by GM. Yes GM has shares in Suzuki and they are partners in the US but they aren't owned by GM.
 

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i see nothing wrong with someone making money even tens of millions a year. that's cool with me. they don't sign their own checks, their pay is decided by a large board of folks who make far less. i also have no problem watching a shitty company fail. that's free market capitalism at its finest. if they had filed ch. 11 they would have had a chance to completely restructure the company and get the benefits paid for past employees. then they could start fresh and not let the unions fuck it up this time.

the fact that people care that the CEOs flew privately to a meeting on capital hill is funny. i saw the irony in that but do you really expect these guys to drive long distance all the time? i wouldn't and don't if i can fly private i take that opportunity over commercial. who wouldn't.

some people seem really jealous of others wealth.

my:2cents:
 

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i see nothing wrong with someone making money even tens of millions a year. that's cool with me. they don't sign their own checks, their pay is decided by a large board of folks who make far less. i also have no problem watching a shitty company fail. that's free market capitalism at its finest. if they had filed ch. 11 they would have had a chance to completely restructure the company and get the benefits paid for past employees. then they could start fresh and not let the unions fuck it up this time.

the fact that people care that the CEOs flew privately to a meeting on capital hill is funny. i saw the irony in that but do you really expect these guys to drive long distance all the time? i wouldn't and don't if i can fly private i take that opportunity over commercial. who wouldn't.

some people seem really jealous of others wealth.

my:2cents:
Capitol hill isn't asking for a bailout. They can fly whatever the fuck they want, and do.

So, being upset with CEO's showing up in private jets (plural) asking for government money to save their industry when they had no research prepared to support said request is "jealousy" to you?

Then you're GD right I'm jealous. If I procure the wrong fucking part in one of my designs, my boss chews my ass for a few hours. I'm jealous I'm not held to the same standard as a dumbfuck CEO who comes to a bailout hearing w/o research, who's company loses $2k every time it sells a car and then has the mother fucking audacity to show up in a private jet, burning more fuel than selling one car can cover.
 

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I dont thinkt they should have gotten anything. This is bull shit that the american tax payer is having to pay for their dumb ass mistakes. Build better vehicles, dont pay your executives as much, give better employee benifits, so on and so forth. Bull shit if you ask me. Suzuki is owned by general motors.
Part of the problem is all the employee benefits. I believe with all benefits and pensions GM employees end up making close to $75 an hour. Toyota on the other hand ends up paying about $45 an hour. It's all due to the fucking unions. GM isn't allowed to lay people off when they're not needed anymore, and if they do they still have to pay the employee.

I think these CEO's shouldn't be getting paid shit. If any of us took a job to run a company and lost the company billions we would certainly be fired rather quickly.

In the end: If they would build quality cars at a reasonable price they wouldn't be in this position.
 

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The more I read, both union and company rhetoric, the more I wish the US auto industry would go bankrupt!

Even with the bail out, its only putting off the inevitable with the current way of doing things. Maybe a 2 more million people out of jobs will wake America up to reality!

Wally
 

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It sucks that we are caught in such a huge mess of debt everywhere, i'm kinda glad they got the money cause if they didn't then we'd all be fucked in the ass , can u think of how many people would be unemployed? I can't think of how much money the country would lose on unemployment, fuck then we would be in deep shit depression, i own a gmc good suv , shitty gas mileage , but still i know it's gonna last a long time maybe by downgrading from the big hemi's and 5.3 to six or four bangers that will capitalize gas savings will get the bastards outta the hole, obvouisly they should taken lessons from toyota and nissan!!:rolleyes:
 

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bankruptcy doesn't mean that the company shuts its doors. it would have given them a chance to straighten out all the union contract BS though. in the long run if they went ch. 11 they would be doing better in a few years than they have in the last 20.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
i see nothing wrong with someone making money even tens of millions a year. that's cool with me. they don't sign their own checks, their pay is decided by a large board of folks who make far less. i also have no problem watching a shitty company fail. that's free market capitalism at its finest. if they had filed ch. 11 they would have had a chance to completely restructure the company and get the benefits paid for past employees. then they could start fresh and not let the unions fuck it up this time.

the fact that people care that the CEOs flew privately to a meeting on capital hill is funny. i saw the irony in that but do you really expect these guys to drive long distance all the time? i wouldn't and don't if i can fly private i take that opportunity over commercial. who wouldn't.

some people seem really jealous of others wealth.

my:2cents:
I have to disagree with you. So you are the CEO of a major company that loses millions upon millions of dollars every year and hasn't made a profit in I don't know how long but yet you are collecting a 17 million dollar a year paycheck? If your the head of a company that isn't making profit then what are they paying you for? Nothing? The bottom line is product. Build a good product, people will buy it. America cannot build a long lasting reliable vehicle..IMO.
 

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The more I read, both union and company rhetoric, the more I wish the US auto industry would go bankrupt!

Even with the bail out, its only putting off the inevitable with the current way of doing things. Maybe a 2 more million people out of jobs will wake America up to reality!

Wally
I agree on both accounts. Bankruptcy could possibly create a situation were we see a merger between 2 of the big 3. And that could create a position of leverage for that new company, and the US auto industry in general, on the UAW.

Giving them money w/o a plan in place is absolutely ridiculous. So much market study, research and, imo, vetting (if not investigation) of every aspect of their business model needs to be completed just to make sure this money isn't just another log on their fire...before the transaction. And who's gonna pay for that? Who pays for the research these companies will have to do just to stop the bleeding and figure out just what to do with Uncle Sam's money? By the time these guys find their dicks, half this money will be gone and they won't have reasonable funds to carry on with the plan(s) they finally come up with. With what has happened, these executives will be right back at the back door begging for scraps again before the end of this recession. At that point, there's a good chance the US auto industry won't be privately owned anymore and will actually become "THE" US auto company.
 

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I gave my :2cents: in the UAW thread, I'm a auto worker. Be careful condemning a industry. If this industry fails the ramification are far deeper than we can even imagine. The route cause of the mess is the financial industry and the personal debt load the average person holds.
The auto makers can't sell cars if people can't get credit. The financial industry is not approving auto loans and corporate short term operating loans. Companies can only bleed money for so long. The average debt holder is just as much to blame as the financial industry, auto makers, real-estate and so on. The integration of industries throughout the global economy is to complex to simply fix with bailouts. If people can't get car loans Honda and Toyota will suffer here in North America, they are already showing signs. Japan put 3000 Toyota workers on Layoff last week. No one's job is safe unless you are a essential service.... even then there are budget cutback.

January should be interesting. Corporate budgets are reviewed and renewed, some run on a fiscal calendar, more run on a annual calendar
 

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I gave my :2cents: in the UAW thread, I'm a auto worker. Be careful condemning a industry. If this industry fails the ramification are far deeper than we can even imagine. The route cause of the mess is the financial industry and the personal debt load the average person holds.
The auto makers can't sell cars if people can't get credit. The financial industry is not approving auto loans and corporate short term operating loans. Companies can only bleed money for so long. The average debt holder is just as much to blame as the financial industry, auto makers, real-estate and so on. The integration of industries throughout the global economy is to complex to simply fix with bailouts. If people can't get car loans Honda and Toyota will suffer here in North America, they are already showing signs. Japan put 3000 Toyota workers on Layoff last week. No one's job is safe unless you are a essential service.... even then there are budget cutback.

January should be interesting. Corporate budgets are reviewed and renewed, some run on a fiscal calendar, more run on a annual calendar
I'm not condemning the industry, I'm condemning it's business model and it's practice in obtaining this bailout. You make a good point about car loans, but at what point do you, as a car manufacturer, continue to provide service to deadbeat consumers at your own loss? They do so b/c they owe more than they make just like the deadbeats that buy their cars. Something obviously doesn't work, and if the US taxpayers are funding the fix, wouldn't that be asking them (taxpayers and workers) to pay to keep their union jobs and benefits? Isn't that considered robbing Peter to pay Paul, when a lower wage, curtailed benefits and fewer bailouts (b/c there will be others) could accomplish the same thing?

You reference a world economy and how it suffers along with our auto industry, and yet I have to wonder if this same frame of mind is embraced by the unions when they hold out over benefits and wages that most other working Americans aren't privy to.
 

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When the unions held out for more the economy was strong. the UAW had taken concessions 2 or 3 years ago when time were still good, not deep concessions, but concessions. The main reason was to keep the big three competitive on the global stage, the big three were loosing market share in their own back yard. I believe right now the UAW members would rather take deep concessions just to keep the Titanic afloat.
If our company wanted to open the contract, wanting us to take concessions to keep the doors open, we would ratify the contract. In this day in age, a job is better then no job.

Imports from Korea are really hurting Canadian and American Auto production. Korea ships a lot more vehicles here at better pricing then domestic built vehicles. North America ships very little to Korea. It's not equal trade, same goes with manufacturing goods received from China vs shipping to China.
Big Three auto workers know this, unions know this. Unions have a motto.... "Always step forward, never step back" Unions are finding out this no longer applies. Unions have no choice but to take backward steps in order to keep jobs/ members. A union is a business just like any other, Unions are very different today compared to bygone eras.

The game has changed very, very fast, its catching everyone off guard. I made reference to my engineer buddy that lost his job in the UAW thread.
I'm attending self marketing, resume writing, job market, small business venture classes, jumping through all the hoops trying, to get approval for further education through Second Careers Employment Canada. Most of the people attending these courses are professionals that just lost their job. Each class has about 30 people in it, all ages and professions, most companies simply let employees go because the employees wages are not feasible for the survival of the company or organization.

It's a wake up call for everyone auto workers are only a fraction of unionized jobs. I think unionized and non unionized employees will have to take concessions at some point, if they are lucky to keep their jobs.

North American culture is guilty for living in the here and now... credit cards and big loans make the American dream reality. It spread like a disease around the world as did globalization. Its not realistic or reality, now we pay.

German, chinese auto makers are asking their government for bailouts as well. No one really knows if it wise to do so and if we do go ahead with bailouts are we better off or are we better of dissolving the industry and deal with millions more unemployed with out a growth industry to adopt these workers. If the auto industry devolves the down turn in the economy will snowball.

I personally do not think the bailout will work ether way it will still cost the tax payer a huge amount of money to deal with the millions that will be unemployed if these companies fail completely. If the big three file for chapter 11 it will not change things. If the pensions of retired workers are eliminated that opens another can of worms, retirees rely on that money.

My spending has stopped, I am no longer supporting the businesses that I would have, simply because my money is on a strict budget. For every unemployed person out there 10 more will suffer because your not spending money.

I think we haven't hit bottom in the markets, I think we are heading for a depression. Government only has a couple Band-Aid's for big lacerations.

If we are not spending it doesn't help business if we spend it doesn't help us save for the future or pay the bills... its a catch 22.

Automotive is only one sector, they haven't even addressed other sectors.:confused:
 

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Different subject but still a sign of the times....

Canada has built they're last snow blower 3 weeks ago. It is no longer cost effective to build them in Canada....

What the hell is with that? One of the snowiest countries in the world and we have import snowblowers? WTF? :mad: Something is very wrong with that.:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Where do the bailouts end??? I'm in the medical field so what happens when Obama tries to give everyone "free" healthcare which will raise the cost of healthcare and taxes for everyone. If his plan fails, will the government bailout the healthcare industry??? I don't believe it will happen but I'm just trying to make a point.
 

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Where do the bailouts end??? I'm in the medical field so what happens when Obama tries to give everyone "free" healthcare which will raise the cost of healthcare and taxes for everyone. If his plan fails, will the government bailout the healthcare industry??? I don't believe it will happen but I'm just trying to make a point.
There no such thing as free health care. Canadians have a government run health care system, but Canadians pay for it through taxes.

If the heath care system fails in the states, I'm sure hospital corporations will join the line for handouts.

I can't believe Americans arn't taking to the streets protesting the careless handling of the financial bailout, it hasn't helped anyone from the bottom up , only from the top down.:confused:
 
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