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I have to agree with Toku. I have called Camburg twice. Nice guys there but no solution offered except that my shop doesn't know how to align the truck. My truck would not zero out the camber. The castor is what it is because the camber adjustments are maxed out front and back. I had 2 3/4" of lift and too much camber. I lowered it to 2 3/8" and still too much camber. My alignment shop is fine. The adjustments are maxed out, plain and simple. Nobody ever said that proper alignment would not be possible unless I had such and such coilovers. I will continue to adjust ride height until I can get the camber zeroed or I get sick of tearing into the same stuff over and over and justify spending another $600 on UCA's.

Flame away. I don't care.
 
damn this issue is going crazy. ill check the length of my a-arms when i get home. i got the lifetime alignment at discount tires near the old demello shop. 130 bucks. i was referred there by jason cause he sends all his customers to get their alignment there and the guy there does a good job. havent had a problem.
 
I too would have to agree with toku.

Any alignment shop should be able to align the truck without much difficulty (computer or manual). Some do a better job than others. Yes Dave is a great guy to do alignments, in fact he did the first alignment on my truck and did a great job with what he had to work with on my stock UCAs. And what I mean by that is that he was only able to get 0 to 0.5 deg of caster, a limitation of my stock UCAs. But any alignment shop should should not have to max out the bottom UCA's (adding neg camber, by pushing the LCA out from the vehicle) just to fix the added positive caber from the new UCA. I remember when I installed my UCAs there was very little if any added camber when they were installed before the alignment.

And, it does not matter what kind of lift you have installed. 2-2.5" is 2-2.5". Doesn't matter if it's a spacer, coil, or CO. These are shocks with coil springs, they are not a strut. When you add any of these types of lift it does not change the suspension geometry at any different than one of the other methods of lifting. Both a-arms move up and down at the same rate. Yes, some spacers might not give you the lift they advertise. If they do actually give you the 2.5" of lift then there is no difference with the suspension geometry with the spacer than there is with a CO at 2.5" of lift.

Plus, it seems that Camburg (taking toku's word for it) is giving conflicting info. First they said they had a bad batch of UCAs (jig was misaligned) and were aware of the problem. Now they are denying the problem even exists and are blaming the alignment shop on the problem, even though that same shop was able to get good alignment with a competitors UCAs.

If this is true (note I said IF) and there is a problem with Camburg's UCAs, they need to setup a recall. This would be the only right thing to do. Get the specifics of the problem (be it the 7" long tube or other means) tell people to measure it and then send them the right product.

I am in no way trying to bash Camburg, I think they make a great product. In fact I would be running a set of their UCAs right now had then been out before the ones that I have installed now. I just think there was a slight mishap with their equipment and that they should rectify the problem.
 
SCEXPLORER said:
They're great! If you're buying arms for function only then I think they're little too overkill. They do have a lot more adjustment features if you need it.
Well since I had them :) You dont have to go through what you guys are going through right now. Yes they are more, do they do anything different no. They do allow you to make the right adjustments incase you get too long of an arm. But hey, just make the right size arms right? THis is disheartening hearing that these Camburg AARMs are doing this!
 
Toku & some of you are putting words into my mouth and reading between the lines.

1) I NEVER said you only have to take it to our alignment guy a "GURU" of sorts. What I said is that you need to take it to a qualified alignment shop that knows how to align a lifted truck. Thats goes with any companies suspension system, ours, Total Chaos or anyone else for that matter. You'd be surprised on how many "alignment shops" dont know what they are doing.

2) This whole tube length measurement is a non-issue. Like I said it DOES NOT dictate any of the geometry, the placement of the uniball cup does. If the notch is different, or it's fitted to the uniball cup slightly different the length will vary slightly. If you're trying to come up with a true dimension you need to be dealing with center lines with all the pivot points. NOT how long a tube is when our tubes will be a different length than the TC's because of where the tube comes into the uniball cup like explained above.

3) Like I said our arm was designed around 2-2.5" of true lift and getting maximum wheel travel. Our arm gets more travel than the TC arm because of the geometry we build into our arms. Maybe the TC is easier to align with your aftermarket springs, but that doesnt mean ours is incorrect or flawed. We didnt build our arms around spacer lifts or aftermarket coil springs, we built it to be used with adjustable coilovers.

4) We have some of the best customer service in the offroad industry, if that were not the case then I wouldnt be discussing this right now. If anyone feels they have an issuse with any of our products give us a call and we'll work with you. But if you're not willing to take the time to do that then their is nothing we can do, even though we are more than gladly to. We cant help those who dont want help and are not willing to make that effort.

5) In regards to our jig ... their is nothing wrong with it, nor has their been any problems with it. I'm not sure who would have told you this, because someone up front isnt going to know every detail about it. Do we make changes to our jigs at time ... YES We are always improving our products and also stream-lining our production procedures. That doesnt mean we're correcting a flaw. Before any product is released to the public we insure that the truck is able to be aligned correctly, which we have since 2005 when we released these arms.

Like I've explained above, every truck we've installed these on aligns and doesnt have tire wear or handling issues. I didnt say this was a closed subject and I will continue to look into this, but if I dont run into the problems some of you may because you're using different parts (springs) than I do its hard to know exactly what you're running into. I have a brand new FJ coming in this friday that were are installing our coilovers and upper arms on. I'm gonna assume I'm not going to have any alignment problems because I have yet to have any problems.

I cant say it enough and it feels like some people arent listening .. call us at the shop and we'll work through your issues.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering
 
motoxscott said:
Toku & some of you are putting words into my mouth and reading between the lines.

1) I NEVER said you only have to take it to our alignment guy a "GURU" of sorts. What I said is that you need to take it to a qualified alignment shop that knows how to align a lifted truck. Thats goes with any companies suspension system, ours, Total Chaos or anyone else for that matter. You'd be surprised on how many "alignment shops" dont know what they are doing.

2) This whole tube length measurement is a non-issue. Like I said it DOES NOT dictate any of the geometry, the placement of the uniball cup does. If the notch is different, or it's fitted to the uniball cup slightly different the length will vary slightly. If you're trying to come up with a true dimension you need to be dealing with center lines with all the pivot points. NOT how long a tube is when our tubes will be a different length than the TC's because of where the tube comes into the uniball cup like explained above.

3) Like I said our arm was designed around 2-2.5" of true lift and getting maximum wheel travel. Our arm gets more travel than the TC arm because of the geometry we build into our arms. Maybe the TC is easier to align with your aftermarket springs, but that doesnt mean ours is incorrect or flawed. We didnt build our arms around spacer lifts or aftermarket coil springs, we built it to be used with adjustable coilovers.

4) We have some of the best customer service in the offroad industry, if that were not the case then I wouldnt be discussing this right now. If anyone feels they have an issuse with any of our products give us a call and we'll work with you. But if you're not willing to take the time to do that then their is nothing we can do, even though we are more than gladly to. We cant help those who dont want help and are not willing to make that effort.

5) In regards to our jig ... their is nothing wrong with it, nor has their been any problems with it. I'm not sure who would have told you this, because someone up front isnt going to know every detail about it. Do we make changes to our jigs at time ... YES We are always improving our products and also stream-lining our production procedures. That doesnt mean we're correcting a flaw. Before any product is released to the public we insure that the truck is able to be aligned correctly, which we have since 2005 when we released these arms.

Like I've explained above, every truck we've installed these on aligns and doesnt have tire wear or handling issues. I didnt say this was a closed subject and I will continue to look into this, but if I dont run into the problems some of you may because you're using different parts (springs) than I do its hard to know exactly what you're running into. I have a brand new FJ coming in this friday that were are installing our coilovers and upper arms on. I'm gonna assume I'm not going to have any alignment problems because I have yet to have any problems.

I cant say it enough and it feels like some people arent listening .. call us at the shop and we'll work through your issues.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering
Now that is Customer Service!! Thanks for clearing this up for alot of people scott! I know I have worked with you in the past and your company does stand behind its products! Anyways.. Anyone having problems, just call them up. You might have to take your truck in, but they are willing to help you, instead of turning the other way!
 
motoxscott said:
3) Like I said our arm was designed around 2-2.5" of true lift and getting maximum wheel travel. Our arm gets more travel than the TC arm because of the geometry we build into our arms. Maybe the TC is easier to align with your aftermarket springs, but that doesnt mean ours is incorrect or flawed. We didnt build our arms around spacer lifts or aftermarket coil springs, we built it to be used with adjustable coilovers.
I'm not sure I understand how 2-2.5" of lift from a CO vs 2-2.5" of lift from a coil spring differs? if the two products are getting 2" of lift there would be no difference in suspension geometry. We are not dealing with a strut here where placement does change camber/caster/toe.

I just have a hard time believing your statement above. If he has 2-2.5" of lift, then he should be able to get it aligned, no matter what product he uses for the lift.


motoxscott said:
I cant say it enough and it feels like some people arent listening .. call us at the shop and we'll work through your issues.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering
I do applaud your customer service :clap: . I can see that you are very willing to work with people who are having any sort of problems. I can't say enough about how great it is to see a company like you so willing to help resolve an issue; especially in this day and age where customer service has gone down the toilet. I can understand toku's frustration, but he should have also been more willing to work with Camburg to get the problem resolved and find the root cause. This would have better informed both Camburg to make corrections IF needed or Late Gen Tacoma owners to properly setup their lifts.

Scott, it would be nice if you could test the UCAs that toku was having a problem with. See if indeed he received a bad set or if they are fine and work on your FJ (or other test vehicle). Then let the fellow Camburg UCA owners know how it all works out.
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
Scott,
I appreciate the response. I have 2" lift with DR coilovers and your UCA and took it to Dave for alignment. The truck drives fine and kinda looks like I still have positive camber but can't be sure since Dave doesn't use computers. My question is, is it normal then when using your UCA to have your adjusters maxed out or is there suppose to be some adjustments left?
 
Jon I believe Toku is running 3" of lift which would seem to indicate based on Camburgs comments that the A-arms were used outside of their designed range thus the possible reason for the problems. Perhaps if he was running 2-2.5" of lift then a proper alignment may have been achieved. I guess it will be hard to know for sure but if that were indeed the case it would put an end to all this senseless parading.
 
The point I'm trying to explain with spacer lifts and different coil springs is that some say you get 2" of lift, but some actually only give you 1" or 3". It's not what they say. A true 2" of lift with a coilover will have the same geometry as a spacer or coil spring as long as it is also giving you a true 2" of suspension lift. We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples and not oranges, thats all. A truck with 1" of lift versus a truck with 3" will have different alignment specs. The Tacoma's are touchy with ride height changes, thats why we and other companies make the upper a-arms.

I also understand Toku's frustration, but I was never involved with his problem until now. I am and would have been more than welcome to work with his issues ... only if I get the opprotunity though.

SCEXPLORER: If Dave aligned your truck than you have nothing to worry about. He will not let a truck leave his shop with the alignment incorrect. You cant look at a tire to see the geometry. It may look positive because of body lines, fender flairs, etc. Only alignment tool will tell you if it's correct, which he uses.

In regards to having alignment cams close to being maxed out, its only a problem if the truck doesnt align. If it's aligned properly then its not a problem. Their are times when we design kits to have the alignment cams close to being maxed out. When you lift a truck, a lot of times the scrub will actually narrow the track width of the truck. By setting the lower arms out a little further we're able to gain some of that width back and improve the geometry and clearances. Like I said, having the alignment cams maxed out is only if a problem if it WILL NOT align, having them close isnt a problem.

Here is a picture of our jig fixture showing an example how you can have a slightly different tube length but still have the exact same geometry because the uniball cup isnt changing its dimension from the pivot points, but where the tube comes into the cup and vary slightly.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

 
It looks like Scott @ Camburg has quite a bit of damage control on his hands. This topic has been posted on customtacos.com, toyotanation.com, and tundrasolutions.com
 

Here is an image of the type of suspension setup Taco has. To adjust camber the only adjustment is at the pivot bolt of the lower control arm. Is there any other place you can adjust the camber?
From what I can tell the camber is controled by the UCA and LCA. Does the camber change through the travel? I would guess it does, at full compress there is more negative camber.
With a pic hope we can get on the same page and have a more educational discussion.


Alex
 
You dont seem to understand the relationship between ride heigh and how it affects alignment. Like scott said, these arms are designed with 2 to 2.5'' of life. You have a POS 3'' spacer with OME. Who knows how much lift you have.

But from Scott's post, its seems as though if you have shorter UCAs you can run a little more lift. But I wounldn't go above 2.5'' due to CVs
 
I am running T/C arms with 3 inches of lift on my 05 and my LCA adjusters have plenty of room to play with, they are not maxed out. I go to Johnson's alignment in Torrance Ca. and they had no problem aligning the truck. My tech said it was a piece of cake. Please understand that this is a top notch shop and they have done all of my alignments for the past 20 years on all of my lifted trucks and all of my road race and drag race cars. These people know their shit, but are not Jesus Christ almighty. Any COMPETANT shop should be able to get the front end within the specs, if the arm is right. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I'm sure Camburg is willing to work with people on this issue (as they stated), but what if the guy is on the east coast or Canada and doesn't have the ability to bring his truck in to be evaluated? Is he screwed, or is Camburg willing to ship him a new set of arms in leiu of his returning the old parts for evaluation. I'm sure that their explanation of needing a good shop to do the alignment is valid, but this part is considered to be a "bolt on" item, not a custom fabbed piece and should align within reason, or should not have been released to the "general public" as a simple bolt on part. So, which is it, a simple bolt on, or a one off custom job that requires extra special abilities to install and align, in which case maybe it should not be sold for street use. I'll stick with my T/C arms, they worked right out of the box. End of story.
 
like scott said the camburg arms are made for 2-2.5 inches of lift and most of the guys are running a 3 inch lift so it would be out of the working range for the camburg arms. i say all the people with the camburg arms go out and see where the alignments cams are at. and lets see how many poeple have there alignment set up pretty good or they can't get it straight cause the cams are maxed out
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
motoxscott said:
The point I'm trying to explain with spacer lifts and different coil springs is that some say you get 2" of lift, but some actually only give you 1" or 3". It's not what they say. A true 2" of lift with a coilover will have the same geometry as a spacer or coil spring as long as it is also giving you a true 2" of suspension lift. We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples and not oranges, thats all. A truck with 1" of lift versus a truck with 3" will have different alignment specs. The Tacoma's are touchy with ride height changes, thats why we and other companies make the upper a-arms.

I also understand Toku's frustration, but I was never involved with his problem until now. I am and would have been more than welcome to work with his issues ... only if I get the opprotunity though.

SCEXPLORER: If Dave aligned your truck than you have nothing to worry about. He will not let a truck leave his shop with the alignment incorrect. You cant look at a tire to see the geometry. It may look positive because of body lines, fender flairs, etc. Only alignment tool will tell you if it's correct, which he uses.

In regards to having alignment cams close to being maxed out, its only a problem if the truck doesnt align. If it's aligned properly then its not a problem. Their are times when we design kits to have the alignment cams close to being maxed out. When you lift a truck, a lot of times the scrub will actually narrow the track width of the truck. By setting the lower arms out a little further we're able to gain some of that width back and improve the geometry and clearances. Like I said, having the alignment cams maxed out is only if a problem if it WILL NOT align, having them close isnt a problem.

Here is a picture of our jig fixture showing an example how you can have a slightly different tube length but still have the exact same geometry because the uniball cup isnt changing its dimension from the pivot points, but where the tube comes into the cup and vary slightly.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

Thanks! I just went out and looked under and saw that my left wheel cams are right in the middle and my right wheel is maxed out. Dave seemed to know what he was doing so I trust him. I'm glad you came on the board to clear everything up. I'm guilty of posting this question on CT, TORRA, and Tundra Solutions. I wanted to get consensus by all and see if they had the same issue. From what I'm understand Camburg UCA are designed for more clearance and travel thus mounting the arm farther out on the ball joint cup. The downside to this is that it requires more adjustments on the cams than TC, therefore it can only be used for 2-2.5". So for all who has 3" go with the T.C., I don't mind having more travel since I'm only sitting at 2".
 
Thats just the price you pay for performance. Remember you have after market component. Why would you want to take it to someone who don't know how to deal with aftermarket pars in the first place. I take my truck to a specalize alignment shop that works on high end cars and knows how to deal with after market suspesion parts. I post this shop numerous times before if you do a search.

For guys in Nor Cal, go to http://www.customalignment.com They do it right the first time.
 
Just a follow up. We had a 2007 FJ cruiser come into the shop on friday to have our 2.5 CRS coilovers and our uniball upper a-arms installed. As expected their is NO alignment issues. Stock ride height was 34.75" to the fender, after our installation it's at 37". It has a true 2-1/4" of lift.

Here are the alignment specs for this particular truck.

LF Camber = 0 degrees
RF Camber = Neg 1/8 degrees (you want this slightly negative for aggressive left turns ie. u-turns, etc)
Caster = 2-1/2 degrees

Like I said this will be something we'll continue to review but at this point I have yet to see a problem. Everything since 2005 when we released these arms has aligned fine as long as you're using them the way they were intended and not putting a ton of lift into the truck.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

 
toku58 said:
Who gives a shit! If I only have 1 post WTF does that have anything to do with anything!!
O.K. Forget it! If you want to believe what they are saying that only 1 person in the world can align your truck after you install Camburgs.
More power to you!!
Why should I pick up the phone? Because I don't really care to talk to them, I already got my problem solved!! (If you bothered to read any of my posts)
What you don't seem to understand is I'm doing this for the guys who still have a problem!!
And 885's??????????? Why don't you do some research and find out!!


I guess you just answered my question!
So you have a Toytech spacer crammed on top of an OME strut with an 885 spring. Well, guess what, fucktard, OME does not design their product to cram a spacer on top of it. That is Toytech spacer crap.
 
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