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Discussion Starter #1
I hope you guys don't flame me too bad but I've done searches. I have questions diffs between why 7th injector kit and water/meth kits.
Seems that most everyone is going to the 7th injector kits for ping and fuel starvation. It also cools S/C. But all kinds of work has to be put into getting everything in place and tuned. The cost for all work and parts is way over $1000. Now I started reading about these meth/water kits URD has on it's page and it seems like it does the same thing and has some bonus to it. Cost for the best unit they have is a grand also but way less work installing. No gas tanks to drop ect,ect. Boosts Oct. to higher levels so no fuel starvation problems. Also cools S/C way down. What I don't know is (I don't know shit) about these kits is how much meth/water (washer fluid) does it use per tank or per gallon of gas. How hard is it to really tune. This is a start. Help me out and I'd like to hear all thoughts of why I should or should not do the water/meth over 7th inject. I'd like to make a real informed purchase with one or the other.
 

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The URD 7th injector kit will fix the fuel starvation and pinging. Water injection is for intercooling which will help with pinging at higher psi. Under 7psi water injection isn't really worth the price (in my opinion) but you still need the extra fuel.
Once you add a smaller pulley then you should think about adding water/meth injection.
 

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Would like to bump this older thread. Lotta good questions asked by OP.

The general research I've done states there aren't a lot of drawbacks to WI in ANY boosted application aside from initial cost, tuning and system complexity.

Benefits that I've read about are far and wide including lower IAT, less pinging which allows for an increase in timing-more HP, S/C produces higher boost levels, cools S/C, cleans top-end internals, allows for use of lower octane fuel, uses less fuel and produces less harmful emissions (NOx levels).

Interested to hear if these bold claims are even partially true by 3.4L S/C users and if so, which is the best kit to start with (Aquamist-pricey, AEM-cheaper but does it get the job done?)
 

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I have been wanting to do this too. Devils Own makes a cheaper kit. You gotta pic if you want it to activate at a specific boost, I.E. comes on at 2lbs or 5lbs. OR you rig it to a plug wire and it comes on at a specific RPM. The methanol water mix is where you get the honey. WI alone would be sweet. When you add the Meth, you get the octane too witch will allow you to play with the timing and get some good power. You will have to buy the methanol somewhere and then store it at your home/shop. I talked to Texas Ace about it, and granted he runs a pretty aggressive setup and uses 2-3 gallons per tank of fuel. BUT he also is getting 3-5 more miles per gallon.
 

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If you guys would study up on this stuff you'd find that water and or methanol injection is considered a bandaid at best.

Also putting fuel though the charger as with the 7th injector is not the best of ideas. This tidbit I got from both Magnuson and Eaton directly. I figure they are in the best position to know what's good and whats not so good.

Just up the injector capacity to deliver the amount of fuel as demanded by the engine with forced induction and be done with it.

If you can find a decent cost effective way to add a charge cooler, even better, if not then limit boost to around 6 lbs. and call it a day.

It may not be what you want to hear but it is what it is.
 

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If you guys would study up on this stuff you'd find that water and or methanol injection is considered a bandaid at best.

If you can find a decent cost effective way to add a charge cooler, even better, if not then limit boost to around 6 lbs.
The whole trd supercharger is a scabbed on hack. Lets see.... high compression motor, non-tunable ECU, no intercooler, and smallish injectors. Yup, great combo to put 6 psi into.

There is no cost effective way to add a charge cooler in because by the time you do all that custom fab you might as well have gone with a vortech style supercharger or a turbo.

So for those who 4psi *my view of a safe limit* isn't enough, slapping the water/meth bandaid on top of the TRD supercharger scab works great. It does 3 things. It cools the intake charge; it adds fuel; and it raises the detonation threshold. What that does is make the stock fueling and timing maps work ok with the boost.

It works unbelievably well. I was running a slightly smaller than 2" pulley which put it over 12 psi. To say it detonated was an understatement, you could hear the rattle echo off the cars next to you. With heavy doses of windshield washer fluid, not only was the detonation gone, but the power was way up. Stock injectors and no tune. And for the next 35k miles of driving like a jackass, towing way too heavy trailers cross country, and generally beating the shit out of the truck, it ran great. No blown headgaskets, no cracked heads, no shattered pistons. Everything bad that I was told would surly happen didn't.

I had to pull the supercharger off this spring because the rear rotor bearings started squealing. Now whether this has to do with the water/meth or the fact that it was a heavily used supercharger when I got it for $500 and it's been hitting speeds 6k rpm higher than Eaton's max spec is up to you. The coatings on the rotors are mostly gone too, but there's evidence of FOD in gouges on the rotors so I don't think the water/meth is to blame. Once I figure out how to clean up the bearing journals on the end of the rotor pack it's going back in and the washer fluid will flow freely again. Heck, all that fluid going through helps seal up the damaged rotors.

C/N
Water/meth injection works great and I would totally recommend it based on personal experience. Ask TexasAce about how it worked on his 4runner.
 

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Yeah I know it just won't work. I only have about 100K miles on mine that has been running at 6 lbs. the whole time. Of course I did have to do something to add the necessary fuel that the assholes at TRD did not do because they wanted the extra profit and to hell with the customer or their engines. I put in larger injectors then a box to fiddle with the MAF signal a bit so the stock ECU could deal with them.

The bearings are exactly why the folks at Magnuson and Eaton both advised against putting extra fuel or anything else though the blower.

BTW the compression is not all that high because it was made to run on regular low octane fuel. Of course with any forced induction you must run premium. The higher the octane you can put in the tank, the better of you'll be. My wifes turbo Subi requires premium too even though it does have an innercooler. Suburu does it right while TRD hasen't a clue nor could they care any less.

Adding bandaids to an already screwed up situation isn't gonna help any but it may prolong the agony. And of couse all those books I read on force induction were all written by no nothing jack asses while all you shade tree folks have the real scoop. LOL

The whole trd supercharger is a scabbed on hack. Lets see.... high compression motor, non-tunable ECU, no intercooler, and smallish injectors. Yup, great combo to put 6 psi into.

There is no cost effective way to add a charge cooler in because by the time you do all that custom fab you might as well have gone with a vortech style supercharger or a turbo.

So for those who 4psi *my view of a safe limit* isn't enough, slapping the water/meth bandaid on top of the TRD supercharger scab works great. It does 3 things. It cools the intake charge; it adds fuel; and it raises the detonation threshold. What that does is make the stock fueling and timing maps work ok with the boost.

It works unbelievably well. I was running a slightly smaller than 2" pulley which put it over 12 psi. To say it detonated was an understatement, you could hear the rattle echo off the cars next to you. With heavy doses of windshield washer fluid, not only was the detonation gone, but the power was way up. Stock injectors and no tune. And for the next 35k miles of driving like a jackass, towing way too heavy trailers cross country, and generally beating the shit out of the truck, it ran great. No blown headgaskets, no cracked heads, no shattered pistons. Everything bad that I was told would surly happen didn't.

I had to pull the supercharger off this spring because the rear rotor bearings started squealing. Now whether this has to do with the water/meth or the fact that it was a heavily used supercharger when I got it for $500 and it's been hitting speeds 6k rpm higher than Eaton's max spec is up to you. The coatings on the rotors are mostly gone too, but there's evidence of FOD in gouges on the rotors so I don't think the water/meth is to blame. Once I figure out how to clean up the bearing journals on the end of the rotor pack it's going back in and the washer fluid will flow freely again. Heck, all that fluid going through helps seal up the damaged rotors.

C/N
Water/meth injection works great and I would totally recommend it based on personal experience. Ask TexasAce about how it worked on his 4runner.
 

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BTW the compression is not all that high because it was made to run on regular low octane fuel. Of course with any forced induction you must run premium.

Adding bandaids to an already screwed up situation isn't gonna help any but it may prolong the agony. And of couse all those books I read on force induction were all written by no nothing jack asses while all you shade tree folks have the real scoop. LOL
Those know nothing jackasses have unlimited budgets and are building a forced induction system from scratch. So the realities that they are dealing with don't apply very well to the situation created by the TRD supercharger. Shade tree folks are good at making a bag of shit work well enough to have some fun.

The power difference between my 5 psi pulley (off a buick M62 machined down to line up with the toyota belt) and the 12.5psi pulley is huge. I'll run a water/meth bandaid all day long to enjoy that significant power boost. As far as prolonging the agony goes, if making a ton of power cheaply and reliably is agony, sign me up.

9.6:1 compression is high for an engine designed with forced induction in mind. Mid 8's is much more common. 4 psi would probably work safely as a bolt on setup, as you just said even with just 6 psi you needed to add in larger injectors and piggy back ECU foolers in to make it work. So out of the box the supercharger was a scab.

Running low boost, pig rich, and pulling timing to make the TRD supercharger "work right" is a pretty poor compromise. Plus any piggy back computer that interferes with the signals coming and going to the ECU is more of a bandaid than a water/meth system.

If eaton had any sense they would have designed the rear bearings better. Using the machined surface of the rotor shaft as the inner race was pretty dumb. I'm probably going to end up machining it down and pressing a sleeve onto it to have a real race like it should have started with. Turning the bearings at 18k rpms sure didn't help their longevity either.

W/m injection is an excellent tool to making good power out of the TRD setup. If you can't get past Corky Bell poo pooing it as a bandaid, your loss.
 

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I think the piggyback fuel control/sensor fake out is great! URD FTC is what I learned to tune on. Its a bandaid for those with the time, money and expertise to go standalone, no question whatsoever, but that's likely >5% of 5vz w/trd sc owners. So I think its a great solution for the masses. And the meth injection when combined with a small pulley and tuned piggyback allows safe operation at 12psi, with the trd sc being un-intercoolable. My personal experience with the water/meth injection is that spraying it at less than 6psi will if anything lose power for you, but after 6psi it is the only option for this roots style charger.
 

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9.6:1 compression is high for an engine designed with forced induction in mind. Mid 8's is much more common. 4 psi would probably work safely as a bolt on setup, as you just said even with just 6 psi you needed to add in larger injectors and piggy back ECU foolers in to make it work. So out of the box the supercharger was a scab.

Running low boost, pig rich, and pulling timing to make the TRD supercharger "work right" is a pretty poor compromise. Plus any piggy back computer that interferes with the signals coming and going to the ECU is more of a bandaid than a water/meth system.
This isn't the 90's anymore, many newer engines run high compression and boost. The new 1GR's are over 10:1 and they run great with an S/C, there are quite a few examples with 350-400rwhp on a STOCK block (double stock output).

What do you consider low boost, pig rich and pulling timing? A well tuned 5vz will be 9.5psi boost, 12:1 AFR and a bit of timing pulled where needed. Doesn't sound like pig rich to me.
 

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I run the URD setup, injectors, blah, blah, all the shit. Pull 10 psi on my ported 1st gen. Had to pull a shitton of timing to make it run without knocking. Mileage sucks, but with the 4.88's it's scarcely controllable from a dead stop, floored without the sway bar on it. I beat a godamned challenger hemi from a dead stop till he caught up at 90+. I want some more power!!!
 

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Get a progressive controller, not just the cheapest on/off kits. You want it to match the MAF signal with the water/meth volume or you will be either lean on top or boggy on the low end. My homebrew setup is on/off, and I deal with the bog in order to have enough flow up at high rpm.

Oh and I had no problems using winter blend washer fluid, it's a 30% methanol mix.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
OK got the Snow water/meth kit with the 2 nozzles. Thought if I'm gonna do, it do it right. Install is this next week. D.F. WTF dude you like the most informed guy on the planet? None of the info out there good enough for you or you just don't believe anything that's not in your book? I'm going for it. Going to run a30 to 50% mix. I put the 2.2 pulley on to get more boost. Let you all know.
 

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Well unless you're trying to build a race car but if you're into that then you'd be better off building a real race car and not starting off with a truck.

IMHO water injection is a track only band aid that is nothing more than a poor substitution for the lack of a proper intercooler and not something at all suitable for a daily driver.

Yes I do tend to at least try learning from others who know more than I do and try not to piss away my money and time on fool's errands.

OK got the Snow water/meth kit with the 2 nozzles. Thought if I'm gonna do, it do it right. Install is this next week. D.F. WTF dude you like the most informed guy on the planet? None of the info out there good enough for you or you just don't believe anything that's not in your book? I'm going for it. Going to run a30 to 50% mix. I put the 2.2 pulley on to get more boost. Let you all know.
 

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IMHO water injection is a track only band aid that is nothing more than a poor substitution for the lack of a proper intercooler and not something at all suitable for a daily driver.
By this same logic, boost is just a "band-aid" for not running a larger displacement engine in the first place.
 

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Hey Dick, I read your comment on running fuel through the SC (The maker said it was bad....)

What is your thought on this comment from URD?



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